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Faster on track GT3 or TT?

 
Old 05-17-2013, 01:30 PM
  #46  
tcsracing1
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I believe the 2011 Turbo (especially in PDK trim) is faster then the 2011 GT3.
(Given same tires and driver of course.)

The 991 Turbo should be same story with 991 GT3.
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:28 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Dan39 View Post
AP has already said the GT3 will be 2 seconds faster around the ring given the tires, which would put it at a 7:24.
ah..first AP said it was "below 7:30"..now we are already at 7:25...so next week it will be 7:20?

Just for you - and the others: Sport Auto published today the Supertest of the new cayman S (just as a comparison with Porsche Marketing)

Nürburgring time: 8:05 (5sec faster then Cayman R)
Hockenheim: 1,14.1 = 1,9sec slower then Cayman R

I want to the faces here if the 991 GT3 or the turbo wont beat a 458, MP 4-12 or Aventador..

PS: the Aventador did 7:24 at the Ring..Ill offer you one beer if the 991 GT3 will be on par..or better..
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:25 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Porsche.collector View Post

I want to the faces here if the 991 GT3 or the turbo wont beat a 458, MP 4-12 or Aventador..

PS: the Aventador did 7:24 at the Ring..Ill offer you one beer if the 991 GT3 will be on par..or better..
I'm not the least bit interested in any of the cars you mention so if they are faster, so be it. A sub 7:30 Ring time ( no matter how "sub") means the car is beyond my ability to drive it to it's limit so a few seconds one way or another is irrelevant. But don't be completely shocked if you end up buying a beer or two......
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:50 PM
  #49  
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I love this forum. Some guys will consider spending an extra hundred grand (or 3 hundred) to gain a couple of seconds while others will happily give up a few seconds for the "involvement" of MT, or no nannies, or whatever. Kind of like watching Congress work!
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:05 PM
  #50  
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My take on all this considers something added to this hard to answer question of turbo or GT3. For me being a track junky there is something about having the GT3 logo in my garage. The porsche GT3 is in a breed of its own and apart from just dying to have one and take it to the track to feel its performance right out of the box I have tracked a 997 turbo S and really did not like it one bit. Yes the acceleration is just brutal but you need to anticipate turbo lag and that bit was a turn off real quick. Yes you would seriously have to work on the suspension because understeer was alive and well.
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:40 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Porsche.collector View Post
ah..first AP said it was "below 7:30"..now we are already at 7:25...so next week it will be 7:20?

Just for you - and the others: Sport Auto published today the Supertest of the new cayman S (just as a comparison with Porsche Marketing)

Nürburgring time: 8:05 (5sec faster then Cayman R)
Hockenheim: 1,14.1 = 1,9sec slower then Cayman R

I want to the faces here if the 991 GT3 or the turbo wont beat a 458, MP 4-12 or Aventador..

PS: the Aventador did 7:24 at the Ring..Ill offer you one beer if the 991 GT3 will be on par..or better..
LOL! Porsche collector. Its no secret you are negative on the 991 GT3...

If you think Im going to be dissapointed that my new 991 GT3 is a few seconds slower than a McLaren or a 458 on the Ring or a second slower on Hockenheim then your quite mistaken! Im my market those cars are "supercars" and over 50% more expensive than the new 991 GT3. If that is the actual outcome then Id be quite proud a modified production 911 GT car can hold such a close competition to those exotics.

Ive seen the proposed 1.08 hokenhiem time in the German magazine showing it beating the McLaren and 458 and I take that time with a large pinch of salt. I dont expect it will be that low. However I might add I know second hand from a friend that the GT3 put in 7.26 on test laps before the final tuning was done so Im also very consious Porsche are holding the Ring times very close to their chest until the end and will likely order these in such a way to "meet the market". I think you will find the GT3, TT & TTS are all grouped very close together...
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:47 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Porsche.collector View Post
yes..a 996 turbo is a bullet proof car..but dont forget the 991 turbo is way more complex..and I doubt it will be as bullet proof as the 996 turbo - NEVER I would say.

Regarding the speed of the 991 turbo, you all make fair points..but in the past GT3s were always faster on track - not on straightline. If this time the turbo can be as fast as the GT3..why get a GT3? In the past you had at least in 997.2 times; the better engine...but now..

Regarding the tuning of the 997.2/991 turbo: many companies refrained from tuning it ..RUF just did it with a bit more than 600HP but almost changed every part in there...at huge cost..thsi will be no cheap tuning..
This argument is flawed. For months you and others have been banging on about how loosing MT is the end of the world because of driver involvement and now you turn table and say if the GT3 and turbo post the same Ring times why buy a GT3 over a Turbo. How about for "driver involvement"?

By the way. Porsche will tell us whatever Ring time they want for these three models and not until an independent magazine takes them out with the same driver on the same day will we have any subjective and real quantitative data. The facts that I do know is that the GT3 once 4WS was included in the build became alot quicker around that track than Porsche anticipated and right now they are letting their recent 4.0RS clients enjoy some time (as they should) owning the fastest production GT3 Porsche around the Ring....Im sure the same goes for the TT/TTS which also I believe have 4WS. From a market/competition point of view Porsche wont release their times until the press launch in Sept...
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:02 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by NJ-GT View Post
991TT will destroy the 991GT3 on a racetrack.
.
These are strong words but as your smart enough to have made enough money to afford a Fiat as an intelligent guy I will assume they are tongue in cheek.

On purely empirical data the TT/TTS will be much faster around the track than their predecessors. This is largely down to the improved 991 chassis and the 4WS system. These are the same benefits the 991 GT3 enjoys over its predecessors, because if you are vigilant you will see the power to weight ratio over the 997.2 GT3 has hardly changed and the torque even less so.

The new technology allows the Turbo variants to finally put their power to weight advantage to the forefront. Before this the chassis and weight was the weak link in the power equation. Now the new chassis and 4WS etc have allowed this to be better harnessed.

The fastestlap.com site below already has some predictions in place for the TT and TTS.

I believe you will see the TT/ GT3/TTS published times for the Ring between 7.25-7.29...
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:12 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post
This argument is flawed. For months you and others have been banging on about how loosing MT is the end of the world because of driver involvement and now you turn table and say if the GT3 and turbo post the same Ring times why buy a GT3 over a Turbo. How about for "driver involvement"?

...
That's the point of this whole thread........ The GT3 is no longer a raw analog machine, it's computerized and chock full of drivers aids. If you are going to buy that, at this point you might as well opt for the computerized chock full of drivers aids car that has turbos and is faster.

You think Peter would be posting this thread if the 991 GT3 had a lightweight manual, no rws in it with normal sized wheels?

You post here enough to know that there is no way he would, he would have the first thing smoking off the ship and it would be at Sebring within a week or two (as long as it took him to get it clear bra'd).
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:21 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
That's the point of this whole thread........ The GT3 is no longer a raw analog machine, it's computerized and chock full of drivers aids. If you are going to buy that, at this point you might as well opt for the computerized chock full of drivers aids car that has turbos and is faster.

You think Peter would be posting this thread if the 991 GT3 had a lightweight manual, no rws in it with normal sized wheels?

You post here enough to know that there is no way he would, he would have the first thing smoking off the ship and it would be at Sebring within a week or two (as long as it took him to get it clear bra'd).
Its almost a waste of time having an intelligent conversation here. We are talking about cars no one has driven yet but if you think the inclusion of a PDK and 4WS has just shifted the market from the GT3 to the same audience as the TT you clearly have been drinking.

I have no idea how hairy Peters ***** are. I just know he doesnt place very balanced arguments and has an axe to grind IMHO. Im a Kiwi and I call it how I see it none of this nancy business or chest beating BS that seems to go on around here by "experts" on the marque.

If what you say about Peter is correct then he would have given up at the 993RS. The rest has got heavier and more electronic.

Its just such a hopeless defense on so many levels. If you really think that a 326 lb heavier, four wheel drive TT/S with every conceivable luxury built in addresses now the same audience as the new GT3 then you should take a trip to Germany and sit for a while on the autobahn and observe who is driving these machines. You wont find many older suited businessmen pushing on in a GT3. And certainly not in winter.

Its like saying that when Ferrari when e-clutch only when they launched the 458 then all the ferrari sports cars buyers went to Mercedes for a AMG C63....
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:27 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post
These are strong words but as your smart enough to have made enough money to afford a Fiat as an intelligent guy I will assume they are tongue in cheek.

On purely empirical data the TT/TTS will be much faster around the track than their predecessors. This is largely down to the improved 991 chassis and the 4WS system. These are the same benefits the 991 GT3 enjoys over its predecessors, because if you are vigilant you will see the power to weight ratio over the 997.2 GT3 has hardly changed and the torque even less so.

The new technology allows the Turbo variants to finally put their power to weight advantage to the forefront. Before this the chassis and weight was the weak link in the power equation. Now the new chassis and 4WS etc have allowed this to be better harnessed.

The fastestlap.com site below already has some predictions in place for the TT and TTS.

I believe you will see the TT/ GT3/TTS published times for the Ring between 7.25-7.29...
Rad isn't talking about bench racing, he's talking about real life once you get to the track and the Turbo can get the same tires. Where that is not happening in the magazine tests.

I think he made that clear if you didn't cherry pick his post.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:34 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post
Its almost a waste of time having an intelligent conversation here. We are talking about cars no one has driven yet but if you think the inclusion of a PDK and 4WS has just shifted the market from the GT3 to the same audience as the TT you clearly have been drinking.

I have no idea how hairy Peters ***** are. I just know he doesnt place very balanced arguments and has an axe to grind IMHO. Im a Kiwi and I call it how I see it none of this nancy business or chest beating BS that seems to go on around here by "experts" on the marque.

If what you say about Peter is correct then he would have given up at the 993RS. The rest has got heavier and more electronic.

Its just such a hopeless defense on so many levels. If you really think that a 326 lb heavier, four wheel drive TT/S with every conceivable luxury built in addresses now the same audience as the new GT3 then you should take a trip to Germany and sit for a while on the autobahn and observe who is driving these machines. You wont find many older suited businessmen pushing on in a GT3. And certainly not in winter.

Its like saying that when Ferrari when e-clutch only when they launched the 458 then all the ferrari sports cars buyers went to Mercedes for a AMG C63....
Insulting intelligence now are we?

And when did Peter's ***** come into play here? Sorry I don't get it?

Nonsense, 996 GT3 is analog and connected of a DRIVING EXPERIENCE as Porsche has ever made. If you are going to make some non-relevant argument about electric being something controlling the motor, then save it for someone who buys that garbage. The 996 GT3 might be the rawest driver/car interaction Porsche has ever produced. TC of any sort, manual, the only thing it has is ABS. How is that more electronic?

It's not...... So what are you selling?

I'm not talking about if, the proof is right here in this thread, that this thread exists at all. You are the one arguing with the proof in your face.

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Old 05-17-2013, 09:47 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
Rad isn't talking about bench racing, he's talking about real life once you get to the track and the Turbo can get the same tires. Where that is not happening in the magazine tests.

I think he made that clear if you didn't cherry pick his post.
Maybe that's that the idiom "tongue in cheek" was referring to in my post?

Cherry picking? No worries mate! There's plenty I left out. I drove the Nurgburgring in 2007 and its nothing like any race track in NZ. Your USA tracks may be different but at the Ring you are never droping down into 2nd for a 40mph corner, fighting it out through a tight windy slalom type track. You are generally above 100kmph most of the time, its a fast bit of bitumen. A $WD car will not be as disadvantaged there. You put a high HP 4WD car against a light 2WD car on a tight 3 mile track and you'll find the advantages start moving to the 2WD light platform...
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:48 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post
Its almost a waste of time having an intelligent conversation here. We are talking about cars no one has driven yet but if you think the inclusion of a PDK and 4WS has just shifted the market from the GT3 to the same audience as the TT you clearly have been drinking.

I have no idea how hairy Peters ***** are. I just know he doesnt place very balanced arguments and has an axe to grind IMHO. Im a Kiwi and I call it how I see it none of this nancy business or chest beating BS that seems to go on around here by "experts" on the marque.

If what you say about Peter is correct then he would have given up at the 993RS. The rest has got heavier and more electronic.

Its just such a hopeless defense on so many levels. If you really think that a 326 lb heavier, four wheel drive TT/S with every conceivable luxury built in addresses now the same audience as the new GT3 then you should take a trip to Germany and sit for a while on the autobahn and observe who is driving these machines. You wont find many older suited businessmen pushing on in a GT3. And certainly not in winter.

Its like saying that when Ferrari when e-clutch only when they launched the 458 then all the ferrari sports cars buyers went to Mercedes for a AMG C63....
Great post.

I don't understand this thread though, do you? AP - I believe in the Stout interview but it may have been another - came out and said the GT3 is faster that the TTS by 2 seconds at the ring due to tires. There is no debate to be had here.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:58 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post
Insulting intelligence now are we?

And when did Peter's ***** come into play here? Sorry I don't get it?

Nonsense, 996 GT3 is analog and connected of a DRIVING EXPERIENCE as Porsche has ever made. If you are going to make some non-relevant argument about electric being something controlling the motor, then save it for someone who buys that garbage. The 996 GT3 might be the rawest driver/car interaction Porsche has ever produced. TC of any sort, manual, the only thing it has is ABS. How is that more electronic?

It's not...... So what are you selling?

I'm not talking about if, the proof is right here in this thread, that this thread exists at all. You are the one arguing with the proof in your face.

Its a "Turn of Phrase". You make Peter out like some hard core racer. In my part of the world we would say he has big hairy *****. Its a crude analogy to his disposition but also a complementary one if you are counting "man cards" (ill let you figure that one out).

What am I selling? Have you actually looked at my signature? Im guessing you own a 996.1 GT3 but obviously have not owned or driven a 964RS or a 993RS? I've owned all three.

I actually have ponied up for a 991 GT3 (unlike most contributing to the post) to give this new tech a try. I gave the game up shortly after Porsche started adding water to the equation. Im giving them a last chance. I dont disagree Porsche seem to be heading in the wrong direction from a Purists point of view. However I think the 991 GT3 may be the best slice of this future direction we are going to get before it all goes electric LOL!

I have no axe to grind as I dont have a 997.2 GT3 in the garage, I have a wonderfully heavily modified air cooled 6 speed in the garage which I run Track and Tarmac Rally and I like to think I have the reasoning to deliver a balanced point of view - up to the point that people start to wreck another thread with BS throw away comments or clearly biased points of view.....Im also bored this morning so this debate has given me something to do
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