Faster on track GT3 or TT?
05-22-2013, 11:22 PM
#136
do you realize what actual pressure it takes to bend that piece of solid metal? and now look at size and design of RWS assembly and where it sits. do you all really do not see what I see? assembly size is hardly bigger than couple inches wide where motor part is, so it is mostly 1 inch gear inside with tiny teeth that moves that link now.
I can only hope the body of that assembly is at least half as strong as my ERP solid steel joints and whole thing will not simply pop out of it after a decent hit at a curb.
05-22-2013, 11:25 PM
#137
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IMO, since the rear angle change is only a small fraction of the front, RWS is best viewed as a means to dynamically adjust the wheelbase of the car rather than steer it, and the concept does have merit.
Also, I don't think the comments about rear toe have much application to RWS. With rear toe in, the rear wheels are pointed in opposite directions, whereas with RWS its in the same direction.
Also, I don't think the comments about rear toe have much application to RWS. With rear toe in, the rear wheels are pointed in opposite directions, whereas with RWS its in the same direction.
05-23-2013, 02:46 AM
#139
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I find the criticism of the RWS amusing, and at it's root I see a general fear of change and the unknown. The concerns over reliability are not compelling to me- the number of system that can fail and take a car out are innumerable, and many of them are completely new or redesigned with each generation. The PDK could fail and select two gears at once, locking the transmission. Any one of the power steering, ABS or ESP systems could have a bug, the motor could seize, etc. Solid engineering is required to prevent any of these failures, and while there is always a chance of getting something wrong Porsche engineering is generally near the best. They will have followed a long and through failure modes and effects analysis, and they will have put more engineering resources into this single component than many race and kit car manufactures can afford to spend on their entire cars. I see the chances of an issue on this particular system, despite the fact that it's new, as low.
What's amusing to me is that while I wouldn't want 99% of the crap on a modern car, I see the RWS system as one of the few things I'd consider. Stability control, power steering, ABS and sequential shifters are just some of the complicated toys on newer cars that make them faster but heavier, more complex and get between the driver and the car. RWS, however, promises to truly broaden the car's performance envelope in a way that addresses its worst vices, simultaneously improving both stability and agility without adding a nanny. That's the type of improvement that nearly impossible to get any other way.
We'll all see if reliability is an issue, but I predict that once this ceases to be the scary new thing and becomes par for the course (as ABS, water cooling, power steering, etc have before it) this will be a non-issue, and this debate will be forgotten. Or looked back on with amusement, for some of us.
What's amusing to me is that while I wouldn't want 99% of the crap on a modern car, I see the RWS system as one of the few things I'd consider. Stability control, power steering, ABS and sequential shifters are just some of the complicated toys on newer cars that make them faster but heavier, more complex and get between the driver and the car. RWS, however, promises to truly broaden the car's performance envelope in a way that addresses its worst vices, simultaneously improving both stability and agility without adding a nanny. That's the type of improvement that nearly impossible to get any other way.
We'll all see if reliability is an issue, but I predict that once this ceases to be the scary new thing and becomes par for the course (as ABS, water cooling, power steering, etc have before it) this will be a non-issue, and this debate will be forgotten. Or looked back on with amusement, for some of us.
How about the unknown as it relates to parts tested in racing and brought down to the cars that homologate it. Porsche had many years with CL's and we see how that turned out. They didn't even bother putting the RWS on the lesser models first. If you think that is enough emprical data to make it acceptable to every discerning non koolaid drinking Porschephile, well you are mistaken.
With Porsche's recent struggles in reliability with the GT3's anyone who would take anything they are adding new at face value is foolish, let alone a ton of systems added all at once.
Adding more parts that move (an are computerized) is adding more parts prone to failure, period. How does this system, and car overall look in 10 years when guys buy them as a track toy? Or will this turn into the E60 M5 to be avoided like the plague after warranty?
Its good some intelligent comments like this finally prevail.
Ive driven RWS in a Prelude I once had and more recently in a Nissan GTR. I never had any issues with 4WS reliability and a number of colleagues with 4WS in the GTR (albiet a different system) have not had reliability issues since they purchased their cars new in 2009 on road or track (which is the primary use for their GTRs).
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Ive driven RWS in a Prelude I once had and more recently in a Nissan GTR. I never had any issues with 4WS reliability and a number of colleagues with 4WS in the GTR (albiet a different system) have not had reliability issues since they purchased their cars new in 2009 on road or track (which is the primary use for their GTRs).
..
Homework bub, no RWS in the R35 GTR.
05-23-2013, 02:56 AM
#140
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Stock it will work fine, but what happens when you go for a serious track alignment? Seems like adding negative camber with this system is bound to cause excess tire wear on the outer edge. I wouldn't want to be the first to try this on slicks.
05-23-2013, 04:01 AM
#141
Rennlist Member
How about the unknown as it relates to parts tested in racing and brought down to the cars that homologate it. Porsche had many years with CL's and we see how that turned out. They didn't even bother putting the RWS on the lesser models first. If you think that is enough emprical data to make it acceptable to every discerning non koolaid drinking Porschephile, well you are mistaken.
With Porsche's recent struggles in reliability with the GT3's anyone who would take anything they are adding new at face value is foolish, let alone a ton of systems added all at once.
Adding more parts that move (an are computerized) is adding more parts prone to failure, period. How does this system, and car overall look in 10 years when guys buy them as a track toy? Or will this turn into the E60 M5 to be avoided like the plague after warranty?
Homework bub, no RWS in the R35 GTR.
With Porsche's recent struggles in reliability with the GT3's anyone who would take anything they are adding new at face value is foolish, let alone a ton of systems added all at once.
Adding more parts that move (an are computerized) is adding more parts prone to failure, period. How does this system, and car overall look in 10 years when guys buy them as a track toy? Or will this turn into the E60 M5 to be avoided like the plague after warranty?
Homework bub, no RWS in the R35 GTR.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Skyline_GT-R
"The car also had computer-controlled all wheel steering system referred to as HICAS. The HICAS system activated when the vehicle exceeded 80 km/h (50 mph) and controlled the steering of the rear wheels in the same direction as the front to improve turn in on entry to corners" R34
Hey Pete. You must be mistaken. Having been one of the few people on the planet to shoe horn a water cooled cup car engine into a long hood 911 (huge engineering challenge Id imagine) and being the owner of WEVO everything you say obviously gets translated via babble fish when Champ hears what you say....
05-23-2013, 04:11 AM
#142
This car really needs to get delivered already and driven for a few months, and the 20' fitment tires need to be released and so on. And the aftermarket goodies developed. And the chance for those who can afford the car to buy it and those who can't to not. There have been a dozen or so threads about why this car is crap or why its amazing or why its fast but boring or slower but boring or whatever.
My vote is going to the 991RS. Thats where my money is going too.
My vote is going to the 991RS. Thats where my money is going too.
05-23-2013, 05:09 AM
#143
Rennlist Member
This car really needs to get delivered already and driven for a few months, and the 20' fitment tires need to be released and so on. And the aftermarket goodies developed. And the chance for those who can afford the car to buy it and those who can't to not. There have been a dozen or so threads about why this car is crap or why its amazing or why its fast but boring or slower but boring or whatever.
My vote is going to the 991RS. Thats where my money is going too.
My vote is going to the 991RS. Thats where my money is going too.
05-23-2013, 06:35 AM
#144
Rennlist Member
Hey champ. Check out wkipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Skyline_GT-R
"The car also had computer-controlled all wheel steering system referred to as HICAS. The HICAS system activated when the vehicle exceeded 80 km/h (50 mph) and controlled the steering of the rear wheels in the same direction as the front to improve turn in on entry to corners" R34
Hey Pete. You must be mistaken. Having been one of the few people on the planet to shoe horn a water cooled cup car engine into a long hood 911 (huge engineering challenge Id imagine) and being the owner of WEVO everything you say obviously gets translated via babble fish when Champ hears what you say....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Skyline_GT-R
"The car also had computer-controlled all wheel steering system referred to as HICAS. The HICAS system activated when the vehicle exceeded 80 km/h (50 mph) and controlled the steering of the rear wheels in the same direction as the front to improve turn in on entry to corners" R34
Hey Pete. You must be mistaken. Having been one of the few people on the planet to shoe horn a water cooled cup car engine into a long hood 911 (huge engineering challenge Id imagine) and being the owner of WEVO everything you say obviously gets translated via babble fish when Champ hears what you say....
05-23-2013, 10:03 AM
#146
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Hey champ. Check out wkipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Skyline_GT-R
"The car also had computer-controlled all wheel steering system referred to as HICAS. The HICAS system activated when the vehicle exceeded 80 km/h (50 mph) and controlled the steering of the rear wheels in the same direction as the front to improve turn in on entry to corners" R34
Hey Pete. You must be mistaken. Having been one of the few people on the planet to shoe horn a water cooled cup car engine into a long hood 911 (huge engineering challenge Id imagine) and being the owner of WEVO everything you say obviously gets translated via babble fish when Champ hears what you say....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Skyline_GT-R
"The car also had computer-controlled all wheel steering system referred to as HICAS. The HICAS system activated when the vehicle exceeded 80 km/h (50 mph) and controlled the steering of the rear wheels in the same direction as the front to improve turn in on entry to corners" R34
Hey Pete. You must be mistaken. Having been one of the few people on the planet to shoe horn a water cooled cup car engine into a long hood 911 (huge engineering challenge Id imagine) and being the owner of WEVO everything you say obviously gets translated via babble fish when Champ hears what you say....
It's ok to admit you don't know what you are talking about. We are aware of that already.
05-23-2013, 10:47 AM
#148
Rennlist Member
c'mon. no matter what who says here, we`re all friendlies here.
old HICAS was crap. if you were not around cars, google it a bit. it was not reliable at all and it did fail plenty of times. to what degree new RWS will be sustainable to track induced stress is yet to be seen.
I agree to Peter`s comment btw - indeed new arms configuration should help reducing the load, still, it all depends of what they`ve done there.
old HICAS was crap. if you were not around cars, google it a bit. it was not reliable at all and it did fail plenty of times. to what degree new RWS will be sustainable to track induced stress is yet to be seen.
I agree to Peter`s comment btw - indeed new arms configuration should help reducing the load, still, it all depends of what they`ve done there.
05-23-2013, 12:45 PM
#149
Burning Brakes
The R34 wasn't even sold in the states. So I highly doubt you drove it, or your friends have not had any problems with it since buying in 2009, considering the R34 ended production in the late 90's early 00's.
It's ok to admit you don't know what you are talking about. We are aware of that already.
It's ok to admit you don't know what you are talking about. We are aware of that already.
to wit:
"In the case of the R32 Skyline, that meant six cylinders, twin turbos, all-wheel drive with computer-controlled torque split and all-wheel steer. Looking back, this was the racing equivalent of arriving at a knife fight with a machine gun, but there’s no question it made for spectacular racing, both in Japan and abroad. In Europe the Group A R32 Skyline creamed the opposition in the 1991 Spa 24 Hours, while in Australia the GT-Rs kicked seven shades out of the V8 Fords and Holdens and used E30 M3s as toothpicks with which to prize out the gristle left from chewing up RS500 Cosworths. Between them Nissan drivers Jim Richards and Mark Skaife won the 1990, 1991 and 1992 Group A championships (the forerunner to V8 Supercars), plus the ’91 and ’92 Bathurst 1000 races. Their exploits prompted the Australian press to come up with that immortal nickname for the GT-R: ‘Godzilla’."
cf: http://www.evo.co.uk/features/featur..._race_car.html
(the world is sometimes rather larger than the 48 contiguous)....
05-23-2013, 01:29 PM
#150
Race Director
If we were scoring, Macca would consistently rate higher than most for accuracy and bias free posting, and he says what he thinks without being a jerk about it. We all get a fact wrong once in a while, and when we do we shouldn't expect more than a friendly jab from our forum mates. Save the personal insults and putdowns for lesser venues. My $.02.