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Old 03-13-2013, 02:26 PM
  #76  
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I don't agree. Time may march forward and we progress. Progression doesn't mean it is good. Look at the Mayans.

The manual gearbox is like the vinyl record where as PDK is like the cassette tape. The cassette tape was a leap forward but the record will continue on.
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:53 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by jumper5836 View Post
I don't agree. Time may march forward and we progress. Progression doesn't mean it is good. Look at the Mayans.

The manual gearbox is like the vinyl record where as PDK is like the cassette tape. The cassette tape was a leap forward but the record will continue on.
Cheers jumper, first time I've ever seen Mayans, PDK, vinyl records, and cassette tapes, mentioned in the same post......
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Old 03-13-2013, 02:55 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by jumper5836 View Post
I don't agree. Time may march forward and we progress. Progression doesn't mean it is good. Look at the Mayans.

The manual gearbox is like the vinyl record where as PDK is like the cassette tape. The cassette tape was a leap forward but the record will continue on.
nahh...PDK is a Reference Recordings 24/176 audiophile delight!
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:08 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Z356 View Post
In general, Enrique, I understand where you are coming from. First, just a point of historical clarification. The 944 was never considered as a replacement for the 911. That role was assigned to the 928! Managing Director Ernst Fuhrmann thought that was the way to go...and Ferry Porsche was apparently not opposed. It is believed that Peter Schutz, Ernst replacement as CEO, and other influential board members didn't allow that to happen. I lived through that era and followed it closely! We all know where the 928 ended up...back to the future as the new 'Panamera'! But I digress.

Take our your references to 'rich jockey's' (sounds awful like 'Occupy America' speak) and I am with you, brother! I must tell you that some of the BIGGEST proponents of the purest-type 991 gt3 are very wealthy Porsche enthusiasts in these United States! Who do you think are ordering these cars? This is not a 'class struggle or warfare', it is (in my opinion) a fundamental misjudgment by PAG, PCNA & their lawyers of a niche market segment that had, until now, a 'halo' effect on their entire model lineup in the US! The average 991 'Carrera' and 'S' buyer in America revels in the fact that a 911 very similar to theirs - a gt3 - is out on the track every weekend mixing it up with the best from Italy, Japan, etc! Now, they will see less, not more, gt3's doing that and eventually they will start to wonder 'why'! That is not smart policy...or thoughtful marketing, both on the short or the long run!

I believe PCNA will try to make it up to us in the upcoming US spec gt3 RS! They will try to make the RS bullet-proof (re: improved CL, etc.) before they release it next year. These kind of embarrassing failures (plus the liability) is what they are trying to avoid by making the base 991 gt3 less recreational track-friendly, while all the 'new' components are rigorously tested! And it will have proper sport bucket seats (with airbags). Nevertheless, the 991 gt3 'unveiling' at Geneva (for what was said & was not said; what is included & what is not) has left a sour taste in the mouth of many of their former staunch Porsche customers & supporters here in this country! And you & many others in this RL forum have expressed yourselves very eloquently on the subject matter!

Saludos,
Eduardo

Eduardo, I agree with you and I hope you are right BUT I believe, in very simple without writing a thesis, what you are stating is the main issue.

Porsche will make it up with with the RS. Marketing. Diluting the 911 GT3. Now the GT3 RS will please the original GT3 owners.

I thought the C2s hyped up model to bridge the gap between a C2S and the GT3 was a GTS.

This car that was presented at Geneva should have been put on a GTS.

Porsche has sucked every drop of blood out of the 911


911
911S
9114S
911Targa
911 GTS
911 GT3
911 GT3 RS
911 GT2
911 GT2RS
911 Turbo
911 Turbo S


Do we really need all these variants ? I'm not even including the convertibles..

Why not a simple diaphragm for what each car is design for.

911 C2s - DD for non snow /lively driving
911 C4s - for the snow folks
911 Targa - for the folks whom want some nice weather
911 GT3 - for track guys
911 GT2 - for track guys whom want to kill themselves
911 Turbo - for those whom want a little of everything in 1 bundle.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:10 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Bill_C4S View Post
nahh...PDK is a Reference Recordings 24/176 audiophile delight!
Some like to listen to music, while others make it. So is with the PDK vs manual.

Btw I am not saying it should be only manual. I only want the option for manual as this would be the only way I would buy it new or on the used market.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:23 PM
  #81  
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I agree there should have been a manual option.

Especially, given that two other stable mates will deliver manuals in 2013....

1. Lambo with the 560-2 (yes the soon to be announced 50th anniversary, manual version of the Gallardo..and yup 560 not 550..)

and

2. the new Audi R8 (V8/V10/V10 Plus) all of which include a manual option along side the DCT...

then PAG should have as a nod to the genealogy of the GT3....

afforded the option.
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:37 PM
  #82  
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You make some good points, and well said... here's what I'm getting at and it's a very personal deal for everyone... I have a 01 Diablo and a 99 550 Maranello... both analog... the Maranello is the better car, it's more engineered, balanced, poised, lighter... the Diablo is raw, mechanical, loud, and feels like it was put together by mechanics over the weekend... it has an unfinished quality to it... it's the more exciting car, by far... it has charm and muscle and it's imperfect in a lot of ways... a big go-kart with a 600 hp V12 right behind your ears... the Ferrari is the tall brunette Italian model, with her graduate degrees, her 5 languages, and the piano and ballet pedigree... the Lambo is the playboy bunny with a few tats The first one you want to take to the Opera, the second one you want to schtoop and that's about as scientific as I can get on this one...
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:47 PM
  #83  
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I personally, from what I have heard ex factory, do not believe a manual transmission was ever a real contender for the 991 GT3. Test mules have sported the PDK in various guises since July last year and I cant recall seeing any spy photographs sporting a manual transmission. Of course the development path of the 991 GT3 RS (if there is to be one) is now well advanced and by the time customers take delivery of 9991 GT3 will all but be signed off.

Its going to come down to what the motoring world say about the PDK GT3. They will be the first to tell us how this car drives and we will likely start reading about it from July/August this year. They are really the only medium that could change any predetermined course of transmission selection for the 991 GT3.

I believe the GT3 & GT3RS should have only one choice of transmission. As AP has said they are a small team and offering a choice means designing two different cars (due to electronics, weight distribution etc) and the resources dont exist. The GT3 should always be a cohesive design from impetus to execution to retain its character and specific traits (for better or worse).

My personal belief is that today AP and his team have huge confidence that the 991 GT3 with PDK will re write the history books as to what is accepted and respected as the new world order in future sport transmission for the 911. They must have considerable confidence from their test drivers to have made this call and stuck it all on the line, so it will come down to wether the worlds motoring press agree. My guess is that currently the 991 GT3 RS is on the design table as a PDK only option, but that development of a suitable manual box is still being explored dependent on the 991 GT3s press reception...
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:21 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post

...As AP has said they are a small team and offering a choice means designing two different cars (due to electronics, weight distribution etc) and the resources dont exist....
Sorry, but that's horse**** as PAG has all the "resources" it needs to engineer, build and market a two-transmission GT3, rather it would in the minds of marketing be less profitable to manufacture two trannies for the car, but profitable nonetheless. Regretfully, I view the PDK-ization of the GT3 as just the beginning of the end of the manual transmission in all Porsches, not due to inability to design two separate vehicles, but an intentional market strategy to convert all of Porsche's lineup to a complete automation of their vehicles-I bet ultimately including the Carrera's, Cayman/Boxsters, as well as the Panny/Cayenne's, not to mention the 918/960's. I interpret AP's comment as simply toeing the factory line on PDK....
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:32 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Al Pettee View Post
Sorry, but that's horse**** as PAG has all the "resources" it needs to engineer, build and market a two-transmission GT3, rather it would in the minds of marketing be less profitable to manufacture two trannies for the car, but profitable nonetheless. Regretfully, I view the PDK-ization of the GT3 as just the beginning of the end of the manual transmission in all Porsches, not due to inability to design two separate vehicles, but an intentional market strategy to convert all of Porsche's lineup to a complete automation of their vehicles-I bet ultimately including the Carrera's, Cayman/Boxsters, as well as the Panny/Cayenne's, not to mention the 918/960's. I interpret AP's comment as simply toeing the factory line on PDK....
I don't buy the story about an overhead to build and manufacture two transmission either. In fact, they have two different PDK transmissions already, one for the mid/rear engine cars and one for the front engine cars. On top of this they still offer a conventional automatic for the Cayenne since PDK has not proven itself offroad (yet).

I think the decision is more due to:
1.) The performance difference for a PDK versus manual GT3 is too large to justify a "suboptimal" manual car.
2.) The stricter emission laws.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:48 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Macca View Post
I personally, from what I have heard ex factory, do not believe a manual transmission was ever a real contender for the 991 GT3. Test mules have sported the PDK in various guises since July last year and I cant recall seeing any spy photographs sporting a manual transmission. Of course the development path of the 991 GT3 RS (if there is to be one) is now well advanced and by the time customers take delivery of 9991 GT3 will all but be signed off.

Its going to come down to what the motoring world say about the PDK GT3. They will be the first to tell us how this car drives and we will likely start reading about it from July/August this year. They are really the only medium that could change any predetermined course of transmission selection for the 991 GT3.

I believe the GT3 & GT3RS should have only one choice of transmission. As AP has said they are a small team and offering a choice means designing two different cars (due to electronics, weight distribution etc) and the resources dont exist. The GT3 should always be a cohesive design from impetus to execution to retain its character and specific traits (for better or worse).

My personal belief is that today AP and his team have huge confidence that the 991 GT3 with PDK will re write the history books as to what is accepted and respected as the new world order in future sport transmission for the 911. They must have considerable confidence from their test drivers to have made this call and stuck it all on the line, so it will come down to wether the worlds motoring press agree. My guess is that currently the 991 GT3 RS is on the design table as a PDK only option, but that development of a suitable manual box is still being explored dependent on the 991 GT3s press reception...
Macca, good points. I would add:

1) Speculate........evaluate details .........decide

2) Speculate........evaluate details.........drive.........decide.

That one additional step makes Option 2 so much more logical. As Macca pointed out earlier, it's basically what AP has said; drive the car then let me know. Even if some preliminary details are disappointing to you, why the insistence on reaching a premature conclusion? Are people afraid that pre-conceived ideas and prejudices might be challenged if they actually drove the car?

I honestly understand the healthy skepticism about PDK, RWS, etc. But I don't understand the desire for a rush to judgement before even seeing the car in person, much less driving it, or at least getting input from reputable reviewers. I wish someone would explain the reasoning behind that.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:03 PM
  #87  
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Driving the car first isn't a great option....

Each dealer will have a limited allocation - -and the early cars are most likely already spoken for.

later on - if you happen to find a dealer with a car in stock - good luck getting a test drive.

Fact is - if you want this car - you need to act now - or soon . . .. .and that doesn't include a test drive.

I went out today and drove a pdk carrera S, and and a pdk turbo S - - but not sure how much that really tells me about the new GT3
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:04 PM
  #88  
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Al +Stirling. I don't disagree that there is an agenda at play here, Porsche is a corporation after all. AP said the resources weren't available so I think the point is that if you read between the lines (as you have identified) there is no internal mandate to make a manual a serious contender for the new GT3. I believe its probably a performance related decision.

Mike is right however. Until someone has driven the damn thing and reported on it much of what we are discussing falls into the speculation camp at this stage. Debate is healthy but I think its a bit too easy to over speculate this stage and already there are many pundits on these threads boxing themselves into corners ("Ill never own a PDK GT3" etc).

If PAG are going to drag me into the digital driving experience/age finally, (the most modern 911 I have owned to date being a 996 GT3), then I just pray this GT3 lives up to AP's promises and is a class leader. Until we hear from someone who has driven the car (other than AP or the PAG team) then we just have to wait....and speculate LOL!
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:09 PM
  #89  
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eztrader. You are correct and preaching to the converted (with MIke and myself at least as we already have orders in). The first cars into the USA will likely be Xmas. However the Europeans will have their cars delivered before November I suspect and the official "first driive" for Journalists is likely to be early September Id imagine. Magazines like EVO may get a demo LHD 991 GT3 shortly after this time to run a true shake down piece and that's probably the best information we will see until Nov. A long time to wait!
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:12 PM
  #90  
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So I just saw that someone posted a power band for the new motor, and it's now pretty clear to me that we're never getting a manual with this motor.

The big change vs the street 997 GT3 motors is a lack of low end torque. Look at the 991 overlayed with an RS 4.0, and you can see what I mean:


The 991 has a 2000 rpm torque hole vs any of the street 997 GT3s.

With a PDK this doesn't matter- the 4500 rpm torque band is plenty wide enough that the gearbox can always downshift into the power band. With a manual, however, shifting takes time, and the extra flexibility to carry a higher gear is needed.

The new 991 powerband actually looks almost the same as a 997 cup car's. The cup car also doesn't have torque until 4500 rpm, and it also doesn't need it because it has a sequential gearbox. The cup car motor is also significantly lighter and less complex than the street car, in part because they can eliminate the variocam system from the cup motor.

It seems clear to me Porsche has made the same tradeoff here: simplify and lighten the motor, but at the expense of low end torque. That's a good trade-off with an automated gearbox, but not one you'd make with a manual. I'm sure this is some of what Preuninger was saying when he said the manual and PDK versions would be significantly different. Unfortunately it also means that if an RS was to offer a manual option, it would probably also need to come with a more complex and heavier motor to make it work well.

After seeing this, I'm not holding my breath.
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