First drive in 991 Speedster
05-14-2019, 03:11 PM
#166
Rennlist Member
but I'm still dying to read your driving impressions Stout. 
05-14-2019, 03:40 PM
#167
Rennlist Member
I mean he's going to like it ... I'm not sure there's anything not to like if one likes the 991.2 NA GT cars.
The only real question is, is it special, and if so, how?
The only real question is, is it special, and if so, how?
05-14-2019, 03:54 PM
#168
Nordschleife Master
Word doc sitting on desktop, ready for a copy and paste. Will load up, format, and upload at 3:01pm.
Back to editing a rather massive piece for 000 on an entirely different subject. I'd better set myself an alarm, as I just closed the office door and turned up the music...
Back to editing a rather massive piece for 000 on an entirely different subject. I'd better set myself an alarm, as I just closed the office door and turned up the music...
05-14-2019, 06:40 PM
#169
In the EU, cars can no longer have a dual mode exhaust - where there is a quiet mode that passes sound regulations, and another loud mode that doesn't.
I bet the new silencer is excellent - with its single mode managed with an infinitely variable electrically controlled flap. No more on/off sound and loud enough to be interesting when jumping on the right pedal but quiet enough to be unobtrusive otherwise.
Hope you have more information on this - as it will probably be applicable to many future Porsches.
I bet the new silencer is excellent - with its single mode managed with an infinitely variable electrically controlled flap. No more on/off sound and loud enough to be interesting when jumping on the right pedal but quiet enough to be unobtrusive otherwise.
Hope you have more information on this - as it will probably be applicable to many future Porsches.
05-14-2019, 06:52 PM
#171
05-14-2019, 07:01 PM
#172
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Right about now, you should gain access to a number of first-drive stories about the 991 Speedster. Carefully crafted, edited, and, in many cases, word-limited.
This isn’t going to be that.
Nor will it be the eventual in-depth interview plus more considered driving impressions that I’ll probably do for 000 Magazine. No, this is going to be a bit like some of my other threads on Rennlist that covered first drives in the GT3 Touring, Carrera T, GT2 RS, etc.—a bit more "raw" and open for discussion. Those threads have served as trip notes I can refer back to, and hopefully offer good information to buyers and enthusiasts, sooner. I also enjoy the interaction, and will try to keep up with questions as I can.
As for the test conditions, the weather was ideal and the roads were great—offering a mix of fast and slow sections, a lot of curves, and both smooth and varied sections. They were very “wilds of California,” and if not quite as desolate, varied, or long, they were more than good enough to get a good sense of the new Speedster on the kinds of roads it was made for. Kudos to Porsche AG and GO for choosing such a good environment for road testing.
Now, to some driving impressions:
Surprise #1: HD Throttle
The new individual throttle bodies (ITB), a 25% bump in fuel injector pressure, and a newBosch Continental Automotive engine management platform have been employed to meet Porsche's power/delivery targets with the new particulate filters required to meet Euro 6 emissions standards. The result is something my co-driver and I quickly nicknamed “high-definition throttle response.” It feels like a sort of 21st Century MFI, only more accurate/precise. No bad thing, this. Frankly, I cannot recall any Porsche with greater sensitivity to what my right foot is up to—whether it’s on, off, rolling into, rolling out of, or modulating throttle. Put simply, the throttle response with this setup is brilliant—and adds up to more confidence, more pace, and greater accessibility to the Speedster’s power. How does that manifest itself? It’s subtle, and I can see where some may go on to disagree with me for this (and there is always some risk in sharing impressions gleaned from one day with a car!), but where I find it tricky/hectic to obtain the last 1000~ rpm of a GT3 or GT3 RS between bends in second or third anywhere other than a race track, it’s very easy and “unalarming” to do so in the Speedster. YMMV, but I find that to be a not so subtle upshot. Where so many GT3s feel hairball when you’re after them, this one doesn’t, so you end up using more of the engine more of the time…and feel safer doing it. This is a boon, in my opinion, and if the last 991.2 GT3 RS will get this setup, I suspect those will be special cars in terms of track use. Ditto for the next generation of GT3s, if they will also use this system. Time will tell, as Porsche didn’t want to talk future product.
Surprise #2: Pinpoint Accuracy on Downshifts
The lightened dual-mass flywheel, when paired with the new engine’s throttle response, is simply fantastic when it comes to heel-toe work. It’s very easy to get in this car and start nailing every heel-toe downshift, at least it was for me. I’d put the margin of improvement at 10-20% on what was already a great setup in previous cars. As light and revvy as 911R? Perhaps not as a result of the flywheel alone, but other gains (losses, actually) elsewhere in the rotating mass make this a very free-spinning flat six. The only criticism I have in this area is the occasional “hang up” on the way down when you push the clutch in or blip the throttle. The tach needle hangs at 2000 rpm (or wherever it is) for a moment before dropping down…kind of like the old Z3 2.8 did in order to meet emissions targets. Engineers confirmed this is a matter of smoothing out emissions, but, unlike the old Z3 2.8, it isn’t an every time kind of thing. In fact, it only did it a few times during the day, usually on the approach to an intersection upon clutching in. Can’t remember it ever getting in the way while we were “after it” on the road. We did have a few cases of light detonation on heavy throttle inputs at low rpm, but it was light and dealt with quickly; the engineers present noted not great gas on Sardinia, something I’d be curious to hear more about from our resident Sardinian here on RL. And, if the gas on this Italian island was so-so, then there’s more power to be had from the engine on the good stuff.
Surprise #3: Unlike Previous Speedsters, the Top is Very Well Engineered
Unlike the 997 top (and every previous Speedster top dating back to the 1950s), there really is no practical downside to the 991 Speedster top in use. The only electric element is the latch at the windshield, but this is intuitive in use when putting the top up and down. It’s the first thing you do when leaving your seat to put the top down, and the last thing you do when returning to the driver’s seat to drive off. The rest of the process is seamless and easy, with the only possible demerit being raising the manual top out of the well from one side adds too much leverage to one side if you’re doing it by yourself—but you can work around this in the way you approach the job. With the top up at speed, it’s clear that the interior is fully sealed. While we didn’t get any downpours, my suspicion is this is a top properly engineered to withstand the car’s 192-mph top speed as well as whatever the elements throw at it. I was told the top’s development, the new A-pillars, and the integration of GT3 running gear is what drove the price up far higher than the 911R—which didn't require a new body in white. Considered from another direction, the 991 Speedster gets a Motorsport flat six and transmission along with chassis bracing and all of the GT3 chassis gear where the 997 Speedster was a 997 GTS Cabriolet with a different (and in my view, inferior) top. Yes, the 997 Speedster was far rarer, but was it more desirable?
Surprise #4: The Speedster is Quieter than Expected
Going into this, I wondered if the Speedster would be the best sounding “hardcore” Porsche since the Carrera GT—a fair bet for the first roofless GT3. A drive in fellow Rennlister JP’s fantastic Arena Red 993 Speedster a while back only fed into that expectation, as the valley between its nacelles seemed to pipe the air-cooled engine’s noises right into my ear. Fantastic. So it was no small surprise when my co-driver and I both found that the 991 Speedster’s engine noises are collectively quieter than a GT3 or GT3 Touring (let alone an RS or 911R), and the reason for this is more than a matter of the particulate filters—it’s a matter of introducing what is effectively a second firewall and a “box” between the driver’s ears and the engine. That new Speedster top and its nacelles creates more insulation between your ears and a flat six that’s a long ways back there. In fact, all we could really hear was exhaust noise…never intake or engine noise. With the top down, you have the firewall way back there that any coupe does and then a well filled with a thick fabric top and its frame (that isn’t relegated to the extreme rear of the cabin, as in a Cabriolet) plus then another “wall” just behind the seats. Top up, it’s still pretty quiet inside the cabin when it comes to engine noise—at least by the standards set by GT3s, 911Rs, etc. So we put the top back down pretty quickly, and ran with Sport Exhaust on at all times (though we couldn’t tell a huge difference between the modes, as in the past). Caveat: It’s unknown how much louder, if at all, North American cars will be without the particulate filters. Their mesh replacements to replicate the back pressure of the particulate filters may allow more noise. Let’s be clear here, however: This is not a “quiet” car by normal sports car standards. It’s only “quiet” by our crazy GT3 standards. I am sure other drivers in Sardinia could hear the Speedster’s flat six whenever we stepped on the gas to pass a vehicle, and you can always hear the exhaust from the driver’s seat when you’re on it. I wouldn’t say the car is too quiet for me, but there are plenty of people who uncork current GT3s. While it’s hard to convey the volume and soundtrack in words (or video, for that matter), I’d say the new Speedster’s exhaust note is more 991.1 Carrera GTS/X51 (no bad sounding device!) with a harder edge and another 1200 rpm to play with than 911R or GT3. Make sense?
Surprise #5: Despite 991.2 GT3 Spring Rates, the Speedster Rides Beautifully…
…so much so that we ended up both preferring to run the Speedster in Sport PASM at all times, even when the road was a bit rougher. The damping in this chassis is simply fantastic, and indicates that lessons learned by Motorsport after the “freeze” on 991.2 GT3 settings have been applied here, or that development of this car based on GT3 development have paid off, big time. Never once did we wish for more body control, and never once did the car feel over- or under-damped—or, for that matter, under- or over-sprung. The chassis tuning is, in a word, perfect. That isn’t a compliment I pass out lightly. Car also had direct and pinpoint accurate steering, fantastic front end grip, brilliant roll couple, and great traction out back leaving bends. The PCCB brakes were, as always, brilliant, and all this plus the insanely intuitive throttle response added up to what might just be the most approachable GT3 variant yet. The brief was “911R without a roof,” and it’s interesting that Motorsport has managed to create such a comfortable, approachable chassis without resorting to softer springs. Credit the chassis brace under the top cartridge and calibration genius gleaned from projects such as the 918, 991 GT2 RS, etc.
Surprise #6: The Speedster has Less of an “Edge” than You Might Expect
The revised engine and the six-speed manual gearbox are both brilliant, as are the chassis and brakes. Having now driven all versions of the Speedster save the 964 wide-body variant, this is the best driving, best performing Speedster yet—hands down. And yet… I drove harder and harder, as quickly as I’d want to go on public roads (particularly roads I don’t know), and found myself looking for a bit more…edge. The Speedster is very polished, and while I appreciate that level of polish in many cars, part of what keeps me coming back to the GT franchise is an edge that keeps me on edge. When my co-driver wanted to experiment with ESC Off to see if it would sharpen the car, all my hackles went up. Had it been any other driver but maybe two to three drivers I’ve gotten to know on these trips, I would have said no thanks. Not on the street, and not with me in the passenger seat. But we tried it. While he was the first to question whether it was placebo effect, he felt the car was a bit keener, a bit more willing to turn in. A bit sharper. I tried the same later, and found the same—while questioning my perceptions also. In speaking with an engineer about it that night, the engineer said that it is possible, that it would make sense for the torque-vectoring to sharpen things up for a driver confident enough to go ESC off. I found it interesting that these are safety nets I feel no need to defeat in other GT dept cars on the road, yet I preferred the Speedster this way…as I was after more “edge” in the experience. One engineer told me the edge is there, that you have to push further—and that I might find it on roads I know better. Could be, but I gotta say I was pushing about as hard as I’d like to on public roads (largely because the car was so good I felt comfortable to do so), and the Speedster was perfection yet left me wanting for a bit more “hairball.” In discussing that with some of those involved with the project, they seemed quite interested but also made a point: While this is the first Motorsport-developed Speedster and the first open Motorsport-developed 911 road car, it was set up differently to be different than a GT3 coupe for a different customer—or the same customer who will enjoy this 911 differently. It is more 911R without a roof—more road-oriented and aimed at the GT3 customer who wants to enjoy the car on a sunny day with their significant other. I can see that, and if that was their brief, they nailed it. The Speedster offers GT3 performance in a more approachable that will be an awfully nice way to travel through the wine country, etc. Front trunk remains as useful as in any Carrera or GT3, and I was surprised by how perfect the bays behind the seats were for more luggage. Two people could easily travel in this car for weeks at a time. One last thought about the "edge" I found myself seeking: I wonder about tweaks to the alignment settings…and whether some added "edge" is to be had there given the adjustability of the GT3 suspension. Something to consider, as well.
These were the six big takeaways (or six groupings of multiple takeaways) for me. The car is very well executed per Motorsport's stated goals, being more “open 911R” than “open GT3,” but in actuality is something new from the shops in Weissach-Flacht. If you’ve got questions, please feel free to ask them…
This isn’t going to be that.
Nor will it be the eventual in-depth interview plus more considered driving impressions that I’ll probably do for 000 Magazine. No, this is going to be a bit like some of my other threads on Rennlist that covered first drives in the GT3 Touring, Carrera T, GT2 RS, etc.—a bit more "raw" and open for discussion. Those threads have served as trip notes I can refer back to, and hopefully offer good information to buyers and enthusiasts, sooner. I also enjoy the interaction, and will try to keep up with questions as I can.
As for the test conditions, the weather was ideal and the roads were great—offering a mix of fast and slow sections, a lot of curves, and both smooth and varied sections. They were very “wilds of California,” and if not quite as desolate, varied, or long, they were more than good enough to get a good sense of the new Speedster on the kinds of roads it was made for. Kudos to Porsche AG and GO for choosing such a good environment for road testing.
Now, to some driving impressions:
Surprise #1: HD Throttle
The new individual throttle bodies (ITB), a 25% bump in fuel injector pressure, and a new
Surprise #2: Pinpoint Accuracy on Downshifts
The lightened dual-mass flywheel, when paired with the new engine’s throttle response, is simply fantastic when it comes to heel-toe work. It’s very easy to get in this car and start nailing every heel-toe downshift, at least it was for me. I’d put the margin of improvement at 10-20% on what was already a great setup in previous cars. As light and revvy as 911R? Perhaps not as a result of the flywheel alone, but other gains (losses, actually) elsewhere in the rotating mass make this a very free-spinning flat six. The only criticism I have in this area is the occasional “hang up” on the way down when you push the clutch in or blip the throttle. The tach needle hangs at 2000 rpm (or wherever it is) for a moment before dropping down…kind of like the old Z3 2.8 did in order to meet emissions targets. Engineers confirmed this is a matter of smoothing out emissions, but, unlike the old Z3 2.8, it isn’t an every time kind of thing. In fact, it only did it a few times during the day, usually on the approach to an intersection upon clutching in. Can’t remember it ever getting in the way while we were “after it” on the road. We did have a few cases of light detonation on heavy throttle inputs at low rpm, but it was light and dealt with quickly; the engineers present noted not great gas on Sardinia, something I’d be curious to hear more about from our resident Sardinian here on RL. And, if the gas on this Italian island was so-so, then there’s more power to be had from the engine on the good stuff.
Surprise #3: Unlike Previous Speedsters, the Top is Very Well Engineered
Unlike the 997 top (and every previous Speedster top dating back to the 1950s), there really is no practical downside to the 991 Speedster top in use. The only electric element is the latch at the windshield, but this is intuitive in use when putting the top up and down. It’s the first thing you do when leaving your seat to put the top down, and the last thing you do when returning to the driver’s seat to drive off. The rest of the process is seamless and easy, with the only possible demerit being raising the manual top out of the well from one side adds too much leverage to one side if you’re doing it by yourself—but you can work around this in the way you approach the job. With the top up at speed, it’s clear that the interior is fully sealed. While we didn’t get any downpours, my suspicion is this is a top properly engineered to withstand the car’s 192-mph top speed as well as whatever the elements throw at it. I was told the top’s development, the new A-pillars, and the integration of GT3 running gear is what drove the price up far higher than the 911R—which didn't require a new body in white. Considered from another direction, the 991 Speedster gets a Motorsport flat six and transmission along with chassis bracing and all of the GT3 chassis gear where the 997 Speedster was a 997 GTS Cabriolet with a different (and in my view, inferior) top. Yes, the 997 Speedster was far rarer, but was it more desirable?
Surprise #4: The Speedster is Quieter than Expected
Going into this, I wondered if the Speedster would be the best sounding “hardcore” Porsche since the Carrera GT—a fair bet for the first roofless GT3. A drive in fellow Rennlister JP’s fantastic Arena Red 993 Speedster a while back only fed into that expectation, as the valley between its nacelles seemed to pipe the air-cooled engine’s noises right into my ear. Fantastic. So it was no small surprise when my co-driver and I both found that the 991 Speedster’s engine noises are collectively quieter than a GT3 or GT3 Touring (let alone an RS or 911R), and the reason for this is more than a matter of the particulate filters—it’s a matter of introducing what is effectively a second firewall and a “box” between the driver’s ears and the engine. That new Speedster top and its nacelles creates more insulation between your ears and a flat six that’s a long ways back there. In fact, all we could really hear was exhaust noise…never intake or engine noise. With the top down, you have the firewall way back there that any coupe does and then a well filled with a thick fabric top and its frame (that isn’t relegated to the extreme rear of the cabin, as in a Cabriolet) plus then another “wall” just behind the seats. Top up, it’s still pretty quiet inside the cabin when it comes to engine noise—at least by the standards set by GT3s, 911Rs, etc. So we put the top back down pretty quickly, and ran with Sport Exhaust on at all times (though we couldn’t tell a huge difference between the modes, as in the past). Caveat: It’s unknown how much louder, if at all, North American cars will be without the particulate filters. Their mesh replacements to replicate the back pressure of the particulate filters may allow more noise. Let’s be clear here, however: This is not a “quiet” car by normal sports car standards. It’s only “quiet” by our crazy GT3 standards. I am sure other drivers in Sardinia could hear the Speedster’s flat six whenever we stepped on the gas to pass a vehicle, and you can always hear the exhaust from the driver’s seat when you’re on it. I wouldn’t say the car is too quiet for me, but there are plenty of people who uncork current GT3s. While it’s hard to convey the volume and soundtrack in words (or video, for that matter), I’d say the new Speedster’s exhaust note is more 991.1 Carrera GTS/X51 (no bad sounding device!) with a harder edge and another 1200 rpm to play with than 911R or GT3. Make sense?
Surprise #5: Despite 991.2 GT3 Spring Rates, the Speedster Rides Beautifully…
…so much so that we ended up both preferring to run the Speedster in Sport PASM at all times, even when the road was a bit rougher. The damping in this chassis is simply fantastic, and indicates that lessons learned by Motorsport after the “freeze” on 991.2 GT3 settings have been applied here, or that development of this car based on GT3 development have paid off, big time. Never once did we wish for more body control, and never once did the car feel over- or under-damped—or, for that matter, under- or over-sprung. The chassis tuning is, in a word, perfect. That isn’t a compliment I pass out lightly. Car also had direct and pinpoint accurate steering, fantastic front end grip, brilliant roll couple, and great traction out back leaving bends. The PCCB brakes were, as always, brilliant, and all this plus the insanely intuitive throttle response added up to what might just be the most approachable GT3 variant yet. The brief was “911R without a roof,” and it’s interesting that Motorsport has managed to create such a comfortable, approachable chassis without resorting to softer springs. Credit the chassis brace under the top cartridge and calibration genius gleaned from projects such as the 918, 991 GT2 RS, etc.
Surprise #6: The Speedster has Less of an “Edge” than You Might Expect
The revised engine and the six-speed manual gearbox are both brilliant, as are the chassis and brakes. Having now driven all versions of the Speedster save the 964 wide-body variant, this is the best driving, best performing Speedster yet—hands down. And yet… I drove harder and harder, as quickly as I’d want to go on public roads (particularly roads I don’t know), and found myself looking for a bit more…edge. The Speedster is very polished, and while I appreciate that level of polish in many cars, part of what keeps me coming back to the GT franchise is an edge that keeps me on edge. When my co-driver wanted to experiment with ESC Off to see if it would sharpen the car, all my hackles went up. Had it been any other driver but maybe two to three drivers I’ve gotten to know on these trips, I would have said no thanks. Not on the street, and not with me in the passenger seat. But we tried it. While he was the first to question whether it was placebo effect, he felt the car was a bit keener, a bit more willing to turn in. A bit sharper. I tried the same later, and found the same—while questioning my perceptions also. In speaking with an engineer about it that night, the engineer said that it is possible, that it would make sense for the torque-vectoring to sharpen things up for a driver confident enough to go ESC off. I found it interesting that these are safety nets I feel no need to defeat in other GT dept cars on the road, yet I preferred the Speedster this way…as I was after more “edge” in the experience. One engineer told me the edge is there, that you have to push further—and that I might find it on roads I know better. Could be, but I gotta say I was pushing about as hard as I’d like to on public roads (largely because the car was so good I felt comfortable to do so), and the Speedster was perfection yet left me wanting for a bit more “hairball.” In discussing that with some of those involved with the project, they seemed quite interested but also made a point: While this is the first Motorsport-developed Speedster and the first open Motorsport-developed 911 road car, it was set up differently to be different than a GT3 coupe for a different customer—or the same customer who will enjoy this 911 differently. It is more 911R without a roof—more road-oriented and aimed at the GT3 customer who wants to enjoy the car on a sunny day with their significant other. I can see that, and if that was their brief, they nailed it. The Speedster offers GT3 performance in a more approachable that will be an awfully nice way to travel through the wine country, etc. Front trunk remains as useful as in any Carrera or GT3, and I was surprised by how perfect the bays behind the seats were for more luggage. Two people could easily travel in this car for weeks at a time. One last thought about the "edge" I found myself seeking: I wonder about tweaks to the alignment settings…and whether some added "edge" is to be had there given the adjustability of the GT3 suspension. Something to consider, as well.
These were the six big takeaways (or six groupings of multiple takeaways) for me. The car is very well executed per Motorsport's stated goals, being more “open 911R” than “open GT3,” but in actuality is something new from the shops in Weissach-Flacht. If you’ve got questions, please feel free to ask them…
Last edited by stout; 05-24-2019 at 12:41 AM.
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PPP (08-03-2019)
05-14-2019, 07:27 PM
#175
Nice Pete, thanks.
I find this interesting. You're part throttle through that speed range, or?
On one hand the Speedster could be pulling through that range slower, especially if it's on questionable gas. It is heavier after all, and if it was detonating I'm sure the engine management system was pulling timing which will effect higher RPMs disproportionately. On the flip side on paper the new engine's peak power has moved up in the rev range, so you'd think it should cover the last 1k faster. It should also be missing that slight reduction in shove I rely on to avoid clumsily smacking into the limiter, both of which would make me think the last 1k would be harder to use. Unless you're mainly talking about part throttle? Throttle modulation across the whole range has long been ITB's strong suit...
Or might it might even be unrelated entirely and the car's amazing suspension is simply slowing everything down bullet-time style? Interesting effect either way.
On one hand the Speedster could be pulling through that range slower, especially if it's on questionable gas. It is heavier after all, and if it was detonating I'm sure the engine management system was pulling timing which will effect higher RPMs disproportionately. On the flip side on paper the new engine's peak power has moved up in the rev range, so you'd think it should cover the last 1k faster. It should also be missing that slight reduction in shove I rely on to avoid clumsily smacking into the limiter, both of which would make me think the last 1k would be harder to use. Unless you're mainly talking about part throttle? Throttle modulation across the whole range has long been ITB's strong suit...
Or might it might even be unrelated entirely and the car's amazing suspension is simply slowing everything down bullet-time style? Interesting effect either way.
05-14-2019, 07:27 PM
#176
Brilliant first totally unbiased driving review on Speedster...I had confirmation today directly from PGB HQ that the imminent WLTP EU exclusive RS will have the 6 ITBs from the Speedster..Based on your Speedster first drive how do you think this new engine will affect the RS with PDKS etc..
05-14-2019, 07:34 PM
#177
Pro
What a great mini review. Can't thank you enough for your professional opinions. One more question for now. How would you estimate driving position and visibility to be for someone 5 foot 7 inches tall?
Last edited by john weires; 05-14-2019 at 07:56 PM.
05-14-2019, 07:39 PM
#178
Thank you Pete!
05-14-2019, 08:19 PM
#179
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While this is the first Motorsport-developed Speedster and the first open Motorsport-developed 911 road car, it was set up differently to be different than a GT3 coupe for a different customer—or the same customer who will enjoy this 911 differently. It is more 911R without a roof—more road-oriented and aimed at the GT3 customer who wants to enjoy the car on a sunny day with their significant other. I can see that, and if that was their brief, they nailed it. The Speedster offers GT3 performance in a more approachable that will be an awfully nice way to travel through the wine country, etc.
I'm guessing the next Spyder will be the second open Motorsport-developed road car and it will somewhat mimic the road vs. track emphasis we see between the current 981 Spyder and GT4.
Thanks for all the time and effort expended providing us all with such detailed feedback. Great stuff!
05-14-2019, 08:22 PM
#180
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Pete - could the lack of edge be due to the street tires on the Speedster vs. Cup2’s on the other GT products? It does have street tires, doesn’t it (or do I have that wrong)?