When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Because if a rear-engine car from Porsche was like **** that smelled like perfume, then why doesn't Porsche GT cars dominate, say, the DTM series?
I don't believe Porsche were ever a manufacturer that competed in DTM as DTM was always for saloon/front engine cars. It's wholly silhouette racing these days but I suspect even Porsche might balk at putting a 911 silhouette on a DTM chassis that has to be front engined with a V8.
There is a Chris Harris diary on this exact event on his page on evo forums, quite cool as he drove the car there, and got caught in snow in the south of france and he had entered the motorway right before they closed it so he had it all by himself. Believe it was the exact same car that François Delacour drove on the mythic Chris Harris video for evo. That car was on Porsche Museum a while back, still on it's original grime and scratches from the race and was drove back to Stuttgard like that. * The whole thing was quite cool.
You are the one claiming 'Porsche tune their suspension on the bumpy Ring instead of mirror smooth race tracks'. Whether or not Ferrari's bumpy road button is an option, it still allows their cars (well the 488/F12 onwards anyway) to ride on the road considerably better than Porsche GT cars in their 'standard' PASM setting. Whether or not they cook their brakes or are unreliable on track is not related to their road compliance or where/how the suspension is tuned is it?
Thanks for the condescension but after your oh so enlightening lesson, it seems we agree ground up race cars are mid engined... If the basic 911 layout was such a good one for racing and had so much superior braking/corner exit advantages as you had claimed in the previous post, for some reason one cannot help but notice ground up designed race cars don't tend to be rear engined....
Why are you going off topic more and more just to argue?
The OP asked why Porsches are so fast around the Ring. Not on the street.
And he is not talking about ground up race cars either.
As it happens, McLaren's are not great Ring lapper. Nor track lappers. Deal with it.
I think it comes down to development. When I think about buying a Porsche, I think about buying a car with a lower performance ceiling than cars with bigger engines, mid engine layouts, etc., but one that has been honed more than the other cars. My guess is that, to some degree, Porsche knows the 911 and its idiosyncrasies more than other manufacturers know about their cars. More importantly, I'd venture that the R&D budget with most cars goes into designing and making the car (with room to profit) rather than producing something less exotic that has had engineering personnel take their time to hone its road and its track manners and durability.
What's my evidence? Germany and the UK seem to present very different challenges for manufacturers. Germany has the autobahn which means the cars have to have strong, durable powertrains that can be held at WOT for extended periods without breaking or losing performance. The UK seems to have some of the world's most appalling roads which requires a compliant suspension that can deal with bumps. In all of the journalist reviews I've read, I've never heard of a 911 failing to produce decent power (and consistent power) or that doesn't have good body control. The NRing is essentially a blend of these, plus a stress test on brakes. Porsche excels in all fields because while it's not featuring 5 valves per cylinder or active aero, it's putting power to the ground in a bloody hurry.
I'd like someone to fact check this next statement, but I think Porsche probably uses better components throughout the car (via its suppliers) than other brands, some of which are more expensive and exotic. I believe one of our forum members who no longer posts here for unfortunate circumstances indicated that the same **** suspension components that go into a stock, nonperformance model Corvette at a price point were also put on some of the mid engine Ferrari models. I couldn't believe that but I have done a bit of research and it was indeed true. Again, happy to be corrected, but perhaps Porsche is also going the extra mile with its suppliers, including tire suppliers, to provide a product that is more complete than the likes of its competitors.
Finally, in GT racing, the 911 hasn't dominated the world like it used to generations gone by. Bigger factory budgets, more competition and interest from different brands, but more importantly cars with bigger displacements, longer wheelbases, room for upgraded aero, and different engine layouts are giving the P-car a tough time. Take the R8 as an example. IIRC, Audi's first generation R8 was much closer to the street car in terms of parts sharing than the comparable 911. Audi can also afford to disconnect the FWD in the R8 and have a more balanced car (mid engine) with extra torque (which is additionally beneficial when restrictors cap max power), descent aero, and good structural rigidity. If you were building a car to go racing from scratch, you'd build something more like the Audi than the 911. But when Audi makes a car for the road, it isn't bothering to spend time making sure its street cars have steering feel, good brake feel, durable brakes, suspension that modulates body roll and controls body movement.
Why are you going off topic more and more just to argue?
The OP asked why Porsches are so fast around the Ring. Not on the street.
And he is not talking about ground up race cars either.
As it happens, McLaren's are not great Ring lapper. Nor track lappers. Deal with it.
You were the one who went on about how great a racing platform the 911 is with the rear engine layout being a major advantage - which it isn't and hasn't been for years which was the point of my reply to your post.
And I have only mentioned Mclaren once in the context of having suspension that copes with bumps far better than the 'tuned at the 'ring' PASM on the Porsches. I have made no comment on whether they are good at the 'ring (which they are not) nor how good or otherwise track cars they are so I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to bring them up either.
You were the one who went on about how great a racing platform the 911 is with the rear engine layout being a major advantage - which it isn't and hasn't been for years which was the point of my reply to your post.
And I have only mentioned Mclaren once in the context of having suspension that copes with bumps far better than the 'tuned at the 'ring' PASM on the Porsches. I have made no comment on whether they are good at the 'ring (which they are not) nor how good or otherwise track cars they are so I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to bring them up either.
You said it. I only said the 911 platform was great, not the best. of course it's not idea when compared with mid engine layout. But Porsche made it work and it is the most successful racing platform in history, that's something you can't even argue. Name another race car platform that's more successful.
You are just trying to find a way to talk down on Porsches. Maybe you think I am biased towards Porsche, which I am not. I trash all brands equally when it is warranted. McLaren got the most simply because they are not up to par yet, and I was an owner, so I know first hand. Ferrari same thing. So is Lamborghini. And Aston. Porsche too and I have made plenty of noise about them over the years. I call a dog a dog, I don't sugar coat them to make it easy to go down on someone else's throat. Not my problem if someone else choke.
Sorry but you are wrong - see my post above. You just don't see many of them because of cost and race servicing.
See real time sheet above.
I do agree they are not set up for endurance style events out of the box.
Sorry you are wrong, I see plenty of them at my track. They all ended up the same. The local McLaren dealer supports the track days, but doesn't matter if the car overheats and breaks down, nothing the dealer can do when the car is not engineered properly. The most common thing is engine overheats and goes into limp mode, 2nd would be brakes going away. The newest generation of the 12C platform, the 720S, is a great improvement however. They seems to be able to cope with the heat better now and don't break own as often as the 12Cs, 650s, 675s, 570s. Astonishingly fast on our uphill 1/2 mile straight, achieving highest top speed second only to the 918, on par with a P1 and faster than an F12. It will probably keep that position even when the GT2RSs start running on our track, as the GT2RS will have more drag. The P1 didn't hit a higher top speed than the 918 simply because of the brakes. It takes longer to slow down as the heat capacity of the brakes are reached very quickly, it doesn't benefit from regen braking like the 918, so the physical brakes did all the work.
I don't consider the MR car a normal 'street legal' car.
It been modified by Manthey with custom suspension bits and alignment, and extra aero bits. They didn't touch the engine though except adding a bigger water tank.
I spent the summer watching this car at Manthey getting worked on, it's their developmental car. While it's street legal, I wouldn't want to drive it on the street for longer than say 15 mins. My Cup car race car rides better to be honest. And yes, Manthey drives the race cars to and from the Ring from their shop on the public roads.
That's my car being 'transported' to the GP track this past summer.
I don't consider the MR car a normal 'street legal' car.
It been modified by Manthey with custom suspension bits and alignment, and extra aero bits. They didn't touch the engine though except adding a bigger water tank.
I spent the summer watching this car at Manthey getting worked on, it's their developmental car. While it's street legal, I wouldn't want to drive it on the street for longer than say 15 mins. My Cup car race car rides better to be honest. And yes, Manthey drives the race cars to and from the Ring from their shop on the public roads.
That's my car being 'transported' to the GP track this past summer.
To me, it's somewhat like the Lanzante McLaren P1:
Both are modified versions of street legal production cars
Both remain street legal
Both are modified by a third party tuner
Manthey is > 50% owned by Porsche, only real difference (which is why Lars was driving it around with a camera in the car with Frank on hand)
The rear engine layout actually is an advantage on braking and corner exits. Simple physics, on acceleration the weight transfer to the back, and with the engine back there too there is a ton of weight acting one the rear tires pressing them firmly on the ground. On braking, the weight transfer forward. Front or mid engine cars, will have all their weight on the front axle, basically the car is stopped by only the front brakes. In a 911, with the engine behind the rear axle, the weight is also transferred to the rear axle, thus utilizing the rear brakes, and better braking performance.
It's all about the corner exits. As I said, 911 have better traction out of corners, it means drivers can put the power down earlier, and accelerate quicker out of corners onto the straights. Other cars may have HP advantage for the absolute top speed, but they are useless on corner exits and they don't have the traction out of corners. That translate to 911 leading the first half of straights while the other cars are playing catch ups. Most will reach higher top speed near the end of the straight but since they have inferior brakes and higher speed, they will have to brake sooner.
In the braking zone before turn in, any racers worth their salt can and will adjust their line to prevent a passing maneuver, so even if the car behind is faster down the straight and caught up, it is still hard to pass a 911.
but after all that....
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
I only said the 911 platform was great, not the best. of course it's not ideal when compared with mid engine layout.
Well good, at least we cleared that up and after all that rigmarole we actually agree despite the lack of nuance in your earlier post.
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
You are just trying to find a way to talk down on Porsches. I don't sugar coat them to make it easy to go down on someone else's throat. Not my problem if someone else choke.
You are going to have to explain to me why 'I'm trying to find a way to talk down Porsche' when all I have done is point out that the rear engined layout has long passed it's useby date in the ideal race car given modern racing regulations. And/or why I would want or be bothered to try to talk down Porsche on a Porsche forum....
Sorry you are wrong, I see plenty of them at my track. They all ended up the same. The local McLaren dealer supports the track days, but doesn't matter if the car overheats and breaks down, nothing the dealer can do when the car is not engineered properly. The most common thing is engine overheats and goes into limp mode, 2nd would be brakes going away. The newest generation of the 12C platform, the 720S, is a great improvement however. They seems to be able to cope with the heat better now and don't break own as often as the 12Cs, 650s, 675s, 570s. Astonishingly fast on our uphill 1/2 mile straight, achieving highest top speed second only to the 918, on par with a P1 and faster than an F12. It will probably keep that position even when the GT2RSs start running on our track, as the GT2RS will have more drag. The P1 didn't hit a higher top speed than the 918 simply because of the brakes. It takes longer to slow down as the heat capacity of the brakes are reached very quickly, it doesn't benefit from regen braking like the 918, so the physical brakes did all the work.
To qualify my comment - my reference point is the 720s - even on the PZeros it toasts everything. Move over to Trofeo Rs and its game set and match.
Basically the game has moved on somewhat - do I use it as my number 1 vehicle, no. Largely due to the comments I made previously. By the same token I have proven to my own satisfaction that for sprints it's very hard to beat.
I suspect you'll find CJ has found the same. That isn't to take away from Porsche - they clearly make more useable vehicles from the POV of amateur but competitive tracking (or other).
This is a fairly important point. Access and use ability are very important as is on track servicing - Porsche wins that battle every time.
Hence that's what I chose the majority of the time.
I think your view of Mclaren really reflects older models 😀
Probably getting a little off topic.
I dont think theres any any secret sauce to Porsche ring times - lots of testing, relatively light, good suspension and brakes plus engines that either develop plenty of HP and torque matched with good aero - even the vanilla Carreras are very near neutral in terms of lift at plus 200kmh.
11-01-2018, 08:25 AM
