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How is 911 staying competitive in N-Ring Lap Time when
1) It has RR layout (I assume MR is more ideal considering even Porsche uses mid engine layout for its supercars)
2) Relatively inexpensive body structure (doesn't have CF monocoque build and etc) 3) Relatively heavier and less bhp than competitors
You guys are saying it's all about thick and sticky tire? Is that what it boils down to? Really?
Regarding the competition, the 911 is actually a fair bit lighter than most which is a very large advantage in and of itself.
Historically the 911 was not a ring conqueror, only until recent years when they gave it more power and more traction did that become a thing.
The competitors at this price point don't really pursue nurburgring lap times the way that Porsche does. I don't think Ferrari or McLaren have ever published a ring time of their own. Unlike Porsche, Viper, Mercedes, Chevy, in recent years Lamborghini, etc. You could argue McLaren published the 6:43 from the P1 LM, but from what I understand that was a lanzante effort, however do correct me if I'm wrong. Your intuition would be correct though, a similarly prepped 570 or similar carbon-tubbed sportscar should be able to demolish a GT car from a physics standpoint, but thusfar none of them have been given the tires or the factory funded effort to do it.
I think the question should be why are Porsches so prevalent at every race track around the world? why are GT Porsches more common at the Nurburgring than a Renault Megane or Honda Civic? I have mistaken other GT3's for my own on several occasions at this tiny parking lot in a remote corner of Germany and its hilarious. The reason is the manufacturer and the owners of these cars love what they are and love to drive them where they belong. in this photo which was taken during Scuderia S7 (an all inclusive mark event) it might as well be a Porsche event. the only reason you see so many Skoda's there (VW group) is there was a Skoda school at the same time. in the background you can see one McLaren, one Mercedes, one BMW. You may see an occasional Ferrari. A few more Lamborghini's lately but really as rare as these Porsches are they are all at the track around the world on any given weekend. Second photo is at Monza. Notice lack of Italian stallions.
When I was at the Destination Ring days back in August - totally dominated by GT3(RS) ...
Except the Vette, AMG GTR, Viper ACR-E, the competitors are running on less sticky rubber and/or narrower sizes.
Not quite. My Turbo S on completely terrible Pirelli PZeros (old ones, not even the latest model) in rather narrow 245 & 305 sizes is about as fast or slightly faster than GT3 on OEM MPSC2 tires and comparable to, for example, Audi R8 V10 Plus on wider and stickier tires. I had an opportunity to drive them back to back and to play with a more experienced driver in R8. Tires are a big deal, of course, but there is more to it.
Also, it's a common misconception that the current Pirelly corsa's are less sticky than MPSC2. They are slighly more sticky and last about 60% as long. They are basically trofeos with more tread. Again, I tried on the same car back to back.
Just to give a little perspective at Spa end of Sept we had 7 GT2RS, 16 GT3RS, and a bunch of GT3s...........not a single issue other than a truck load of Distilled water was necessary to keep all the Turbos cooled. I talked with a few drivers that work with Mclaren on their Pure events and they apparently just bring a ton of cars so that if there are any problems they just get a different car.
This is not an answer to your question but Porsches are one of few car makers whose cars actually can be driven lap after lap on Nürburgring.
Drive until the tank is empty.
You don't do that with most of the others: You need to upgrade brakes, add cooling etc.
especially true of BMW and GT-R in particular - you hardly ever see a stock car at the Ring (or do well beyond a couple of laps)
We had several at my last track events and all overheated or had to be parked after 4-5 laps, very little track time compared to the Porsches
Yep pretty much all of the fast M cars and GT-Rs that I have seen at the ring are heavily modified ... Usually brakes for the M cars and +power+cooling for the GT-Rs that lap a lot...
But I also agree that when Porsche attempt a lap time they do it right ...
But the 9.2 card is extremely fast ootb @ the ring even in the hands of an amateur and I would say that speed increment has come from the rubber suspension and aero ...
I've never been able to take the kesselchen kink without a lift in a variety of cars until the 9.2 came along ... I believe it is down to suspension and aero...
Simple reason is the porsche culture is heavely attached to tracking . Yes alot of the other brands can set blazing fast laps but the culture that their brands carry doesnt have them doing track weekends all the time.
How is 911 staying competitive in N-Ring Lap Time when
1) It has RR layout (I assume MR is more ideal considering even Porsche uses mid engine layout for its supercars)
2) Relatively inexpensive body structure (doesn't have CF monocoque build and etc)
3) Relatively heavier and less bhp than competitors
You guys are saying it's all about thick and sticky tire? Is that what it boils down to? Really?
A lesser known point is that Porsche tune their suspension on the bumpy Ring instead of mirror smooth race tracks. It keeps all 4 tires on contact with the road for better traction, other cars that are tuned on smooth tracks with have its wheels bouncing up and down and losing contact patch.
The rear engine layout actually is an advantage on braking and corner exits. Simple physics, on acceleration the weight transfer to the back, and with the engine back there too there is a ton of weight acting one the rear tires pressing them firmly on the ground. On braking, the weight transfer forward. Front or mid engine cars, will have all their weight on the front axle, basically the car is stopped by only the front brakes. In a 911, with the engine behind the rear axle, the weight is also transferred to the rear axle, thus utilizing the rear brakes, and better braking performance. With the front brake less loaded, it heats up less and the brakes won't be affect by brake fade, this is in addition to the extra brake cooling details done by Porsche. When is the last time you heard someone cook their 911 brakes? Never.
The disadvantage of a rear engine layout is that the car doesn't like to change direction much, as oppose to mid engine car where they are ver eager to change. To drive a 911 fast one needs to play with the weight transfer, but for most people that can drive a 911 fast, it's second nature.
A 911 is still a relatively compact car, and with great visibility as compared to basically all the competition. It means that the driver can place the car one track easier. Great advantage to get a good lap time is proper placement of the car on the proper racing line.
Porsche stands behind their car 100%, if they say the car has 500HP, it will make at least 500HP if not more. When they spec the weight of their car, they do it with standard EU method, unlike say a Ferrari or a Mclaren where they weight the car bone dry without any fluids, with all lightweight carbon option, etc. That alone is worth 100-150kg. Basically one adds 250-300lbs to any weight Ferrari, McLaren, Lambo quotes.
911 may not have exotic material body shells, but all the 911 race car variants, Cup car, GT3R, RSR all uses the exact same body in white. So if the shell is good enough to be in a proven, successful race car, what's the point of using exotic material?
A lesser known point is that Porsche tune their suspension on the bumpy Ring instead of mirror smooth race tracks. It keeps all 4 tires on contact with the road for better traction, other cars that are tuned on smooth tracks with have its wheels bouncing up and down and losing contact patch.
The rear engine layout actually is an advantage on braking and corner exits. Simple physics, on acceleration the weight transfer to the back, and with the engine back there too there is a ton of weight acting one the rear tires pressing them firmly on the ground. On braking, the weight transfer forward. Front or mid engine cars, will have all their weight on the front axle, basically the car is stopped by only the front brakes. In a 911, with the engine behind the rear axle, the weight is also transferred to the rear axle, thus utilizing the rear brakes, and better braking performance. With the front brake less loaded, it heats up less and the brakes won't be affect by brake fade, this is in addition to the extra brake cooling details done by Porsche. When is the last time you heard someone cook their 911 brakes? Never.
The disadvantage of a rear engine layout is that the car doesn't like to change direction much, as oppose to mid engine car where they are ver eager to change. To drive a 911 fast one needs to play with the weight transfer, but for most people that can drive a 911 fast, it's second nature.
A 911 is still a relatively compact car, and with great visibility as compared to basically all the competition. It means that the driver can place the car one track easier. Great advantage to get a good lap time is proper placement of the car on the proper racing line.
Porsche stands behind their car 100%, if they say the car has 500HP, it will make at least 500HP if not more. When they spec the weight of their car, they do it with standard EU method, unlike say a Ferrari or a Mclaren where they weight the car bone dry without any fluids, with all lightweight carbon option, etc. That alone is worth 100-150kg. Basically one adds 250-300lbs to any weight Ferrari, McLaren, Lambo quotes.
911 may not have exotic material body shells, but all the 911 race car variants, Cup car, GT3R, RSR all uses the exact same body in white. So if the shell is good enough to be in a proven, successful race car, what's the point of using exotic material?
this is a very good point, you can feel the difference between "normal" and "sport" PASM when lapping the Ring in a 911 ... you are always quicker in "normal" ...
Forgot, one other point about 911s being great performers in racing.
It's all about the corner exits. As I said, 911 have better traction out of corners, it means drivers can put the power down earlier, and accelerate quicker out of corners onto the straights. Other cars may have HP advantage for the absolute top speed, but they are useless on corner exits and they don't have the traction out of corners. That translate to 911 leading the first half of straights while the other cars are playing catch ups. Most will reach higher top speed near the end of the straight but since they have inferior brakes and higher speed, they will have to brake sooner.
In the braking zone before turn in, any racers worth their salt can and will adjust their line to prevent a passing maneuver, so even if the car behind is faster down the straight and caught up, it is still hard to pass a 911.
10-18-2018, 04:18 PM
