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PCCB / Iron regular swapping

Old 01-09-2018, 04:33 PM
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Marto
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Default PCCB / Iron regular swapping

I optioned PCCB for my GT3 (pick up later this week) with mainly street use in mind but I will take it to the track on occasion. My question is not intended to get into whether or not PCCB is the right choice (too late for that), worth the money or performs better or worse than iron, rather to seek out opinions on switching back and forth between PCCB and iron.

Many people swap PCCB for iron to save PCCB for resale, or run PCCB until they wear out and replace with iron but does anyone regularly swap PCCB with iron for the track then back to PCCB for the street? I may be completely off track (!!!) but it seems to me there are benefits in swapping, if planning to keep the car for long enough to expect to have to replace discs anyway. Extended life of PCCB to enjoy on the street and reduced costs by using iron on the track, 4 to 6 days per year. I wouldn't mind spending a couple of hours swapping discs & pads before and after a track weekend so no additional costs in that - well, calliper studs, hoses and maybe a beer...

It seems most run one or the other but does running both make sense to anyone else ?

Cheers...
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Old 01-09-2018, 04:54 PM
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I wouldn't worry about it for a few track days per year, but you can always keep the PCCB's new and buy Surface Transfers CCB for half the price or less then PCCB.
The Surface Transfers can be refurbished 5 times as opposed to binning the PCCB's.
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Old 01-09-2018, 05:39 PM
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Alan C.
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I swap out my PCCBs with a set of Giro Disc rotors. I purchased the rotors, pads and Spiegler brake lines from Clark at Apex. Also add a set of caliper studs and bracket studs from Tarett. The lines and studs make the job a lot easier.
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:09 PM
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GrantG
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Originally Posted by Marto View Post
It seems most run one or the other but does running both make sense to anyone else ?
Cheers...
It doesn't "Not" make sense

If you don't mind having really heavy iron rotors on the track (heavier than stock) and don't mind the hassle of swapping. Might as well change pads at the same time too (PCCB pads with those rotors and something good on the track for the Irons). Nice that you won't have to worry about the street and track pad compounds cross-contaminating each other...

It's not much more of a hassle than just swapping pads, since you have to pull the calipers to change pads anyway...

If it fits your budget, using Surface Transforms rotors on street and track might be best of both.
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:37 PM
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With surface rotors you would use the same pads as those for PCCB's. I do what Alan C. does above and you will never notice the difference in weight. The real downside to steel is increased brake dust. You can actually use a more aggressive pad with steel than PCCB's.
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Old 01-10-2018, 06:20 AM
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Looking through the threads with real data on this, you’ll see you can likely expect about 40 days from the PCCBs. Thats 5 years at 8 days a year. I’m not sure the elbow grease is worth it.

also, the PCCBs are sublime in terms of perfectly consistent feel under heavy braking every time. Steel “works” just as well, but the feel is not there on the edge of ABS.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:58 PM
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Marto
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Appreciate all the feedback gents.

I thought about discs such as the AP Racing J hooks so no real weight penalty (over standard iron).

I also assumed changing pads with discs, keeping pads bedded to discs and providing more options for track (a bonus rather than something I am specifically looking for)

PCCB was chosen for the road which I why I am hesitant about accelerated track wear. Im sure they are fantastic on the track also but my own sense of value tells me I would rather have multiple years of road use than multiple track weekends out of them.

The car is for fun and personal development on the track which is why Im not worried about the optimal technical solution. That doesn't mean I'm looking for the cheapest solution either but I am trying to work out how to maximise value over the long term.

Earlierapex - this is really the crux of what I am trying to figure out (is it worth the bother or not) so your calculation helps a lot. If 5 years PCCB life at 8 track days per year, it's possibly 3 or 4 years life after adding road use, which actually makes the case for iron for track days more interesting.

Plenty food for thought, thanks again for the opinions.

Cheers...
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Marto View Post

Earlierapex - this is really the crux of what I am trying to figure out (is it worth the bother or not) so your calculation helps a lot. If 5 years PCCB life at 8 track days per year, it's possibly 3 or 4 years life after adding road use, which actually makes the case for iron for track days more interesting.
In my opinion, your math is way too conservative for a couple of reasons. 1) for all intents, road use wear on PCCBs is zero. PCCB rotors don't "wear" in the traditional sense like steel. The carbon threads only oxidize when they get REALLY hot, which only occurs on the track, and 2) the wear data (oxidation) is from heavy track-use junkies that are pushing their cars hard on sticky tires.
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Earlierapex View Post
In my opinion, your math is way too conservative for a couple of reasons. 1) for all intents, road use wear on PCCBs is zero. PCCB rotors don't "wear" in the traditional sense like steel. The carbon threads only oxidize when they get REALLY hot, which only occurs on the track, and 2) the wear data (oxidation) is from heavy track-use junkies that are pushing their cars hard on sticky tires.
Excellent point - and one which makes the most compelling case yet to run a second set. Keep the expensive PCCB for many years of road use and just replace irons as and when they wear. It just seems so logical, I guess I'm surprised its not a more common approach (assuming the ability to swap at home rather than having to rely on a shop each time - that would change the value proposition). One mans meat is another mans poison as they say...
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Old 01-13-2018, 09:55 AM
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Do you have a lift? I would not like to do the swap job multiple times in a season with jacks/ stands. Also I'd be a little concerned with the amount of handling of the pccb rotors- I understand they can chip. I have not owned pccbs but have helped swap pads on pccb cars. Just 2c worth.
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Old 01-13-2018, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by zedcat View Post
Do you have a lift? I would not like to do the swap job multiple times in a season with jacks/ stands. Also I'd be a little concerned with the amount of handling of the pccb rotors- I understand they can chip. I have not owned pccbs but have helped swap pads on pccb cars. Just 2c worth.
QuickJack, so all 4 wheels up at the same time. The "more bother than its worth" portion of my assessment would be much larger if I were planning to use jack stands. Hadn't considered the fragility of PCCB though so you raise a good point. I have an alignment tool (from RL member SmokinGTS) so have some mitigation there - doesn't stop me dropping them once they are off though. I trust myself but like anything in life, the more you do something, the greater the risk of it going wrong. Another facet to consider for sure...
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Old 01-13-2018, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by SmokinGTS View Post
With surface rotors you would use the same pads as those for PCCB's. I do what Alan C. does above and you will never notice the difference in weight. The real downside to steel is increased brake dust. You can actually use a more aggressive pad with steel than PCCB's.
I still have a new set of PCCB "Greens" pads. Have they been tried on steel?

To OP, I did exactly as you, and regret not just keeping the PCCB and running them. A long time ago, this forum went over this and I believe Sebring torture (maybe 50+ track days, on that uncambered, highly technical, hot course) was roughly the life-span of PCCB. Swapping the 380's was a bit of a pain (DIY). The other liability is dropping a PCCB, which won't always but sometimes chips them.
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Old 01-16-2018, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Marto View Post
Excellent point - and one which makes the most compelling case yet to run a second set. Keep the expensive PCCB for many years of road use and just replace irons as and when they wear. It just seems so logical, I guess I'm surprised its not a more common approach (assuming the ability to swap at home rather than having to rely on a shop each time - that would change the value proposition). One mans meat is another mans poison as they say...
i spent so much of my early track days swapping pads, bleeding brakes...my favorite aspect of 991 gt3 with PCCB is that you donít have to do any of that! Drive to track, drive all day, drive home. You donít need anything other than a helmet...
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Old 01-16-2018, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Earlierapex View Post
In my opinion, your math is way too conservative for a couple of reasons. 1) for all intents, road use wear on PCCBs is zero. PCCB rotors don't "wear" in the traditional sense like steel. The carbon threads only oxidize when they get REALLY hot, which only occurs on the track, and 2) the wear data (oxidation) is from heavy track-use junkies that are pushing their cars hard on sticky tires.
Originally Posted by Marto View Post
Excellent point - and one which makes the most compelling case yet to run a second set. Keep the expensive PCCB for many years of road use and just replace irons as and when they wear. It just seems so logical, I guess I'm surprised its not a more common approach (assuming the ability to swap at home rather than having to rely on a shop each time - that would change the value proposition). One mans meat is another mans poison as they say...
The reason why it's not more common is because it is not so logical. Why would you want PCCBs for road use? Sure, some say because of the lack of dust, but if that's the case then you might as well save the 20k you would've spent on ceramic rotor for a live-in detailer to do your wheels every time you drive your car with the standard "full of dust" iron brakes.

Originally Posted by Earlierapex View Post


i spent so much of my early track days swapping pads, bleeding brakes...my favorite aspect of 991 gt3 with PCCB is that you donít have to do any of that! Drive to track, drive all day, drive home. You donít need anything other than a helmet...

Plus 1
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Old 01-16-2018, 12:14 PM
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We have seen an average of about 4000-4500 track miles on the 991 GT3 PCCBs, it all depends on the driver and the track. Most every GT car to come through our shop at this point is getting the Surface Transforms Rotors. We have all our guys now spec'ing their new .2 GT3's with steel brakes, as we are simply switching them over to the ST rotors when they come here. For all those interested in running carbon ceramics I'd recommend following suit as the ST rotors are far superior in performance to steels. Versus the PCCBs....they operate at a much lower temperature (about 200 degrees less) so they last longer and have less wear on pads, they are half the price of PCCB's for a new set of rotors, and they are REFURBISHABLE with an average life expectancy of 15k track miles.
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