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So I finally got to the track this weekend and after three days of thrashing these brakes I am thoroughly impressed. Unless you're really willing to break the law, the Ferodo pads need to be bedded on the track. No real, safe way around it, but once you get that white crust around the pads you know they're ready to pound. And pound I did. The pedal feel over the ceramics is unbelievable. I drove the ceramics for nearly an hour at my last event in order to heat them up for some feel and that was still nowhere close to this setup from the start. My two favorite experiences were catching an '18 GT3 in the hands of an excellent driver, not in a corner or on a straight but under braking. My other favorite was having folks come up and look specifically under the car to see what kind of cheater parts I am using. Truly satisfying, both of those.
Great to hear. What pad compound were you running?
DS1.11
BTW, I need to give a big shout out to Jeff, Daniel and their crew at Essex for their support and expertise. You have to have great technical support in the upgrade market with these cars. You just don't go slapping parts on these cars if you don't want to clip the daisies.
Last edited by 69911s; 07-11-2018 at 07:50 PM.
Reason: Shout out
DS1.11
BTW, I need to give a big shout out to Jeff, Daniel and their crew at Essex for their support and expertise. You have to have great technical support in the upgrade market with these cars. You just don't go slapping parts on these cars if you don't want to clip the daisies.
Thank you very much! We appreciate your patronage and the kind words.
__________________
'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs Ferodo Racing Brake Pads Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030 jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
I find the AP Rad I Cal brake kit for my 991.2 GT3 to be fantastic. Seems to be very durable, with constant and consistent feedback even when pads are wearing-down to the last few millimeters.
Many main concern is the durability and quality of the DS1.11 pads. Have to mention a few disclaimers before I get into it about the Ferrodo pads. I run at Watkins Glen which is arguably one of the toughest circuits on brakes in the country. I also run in the "open track" group in my DE events so I get tons of track time. I would guess I get anywhere between 7-9 thirty minute sessions on track per day.
I also usually "win" my track day or at least am one of the fastest two or three cars at the event (even among F430 Challenge Cars and 996 Cup Cars). I've logged over 15,000 miles at Watkins and know the track quite well.
Back to the pads. I am only getting 4 days out of the DS1.11's. The rears seemed to be holding-up better than the fronts (as expected) until we removed the rear pads and found them to be chunked...basically destroyed even though they had approx 6mm of pad material left.
What at was even more disconcerting is that we calculated that I would be down to 2mm of pad left on the front pads at the end of my fourth track day. We removed the front pads and found that we indeed did have 2mm of material left. The bad news was that the pad material was almost completely detached from the backing plate (basically just hanging there by one of the brass attachments) and were on the verge of falling out of the caliper.
If the pad material became dislodged from the backing plate I would have been in a sh*t-load of trouble in the following braking zone. Going from 165mph down to 95mph in 300 feet would not have been pleasant without brake pads!
My mechanic suggested trying PFC (Performance Friction) pads like I used to run on my C6 Corvette race car.
Just wondering if anyone else here has had a similar experience with the DS1.11's?
On on a side note, I keep getting the warning "Rear axle steering fault, drive with caution." My dealer said the temperature of the rear steering motors are getting too hot on my car but that no permanent damage is being done. Surprised to have this code show-up because I am only running Hoosier R7's and am not on a full slick.
Anyone else have this issue with the rear steering code?
Thanks in advance for your feedback guys!
Last edited by AlecG; 07-28-2018 at 11:16 PM.
Reason: Type o
I find the AP Rad I Cal brake kit for my 991.2 GT3 to be fantastic. Seems to be very durable, with constant and consistent feedback even when pads are wearing-down to the last few millimeters.
Many main concern is the durability and quality of the DS1.11 pads. Have to mention a few disclaimers before I get into it about the Ferrodo pads. I run at Watkins Glen which is arguably one of the toughest circuits on brakes in the country. I also run in the "open track" group in my DE events so I get tons of track time. I would guess I get anywhere between 7-9 thirty minute sessions on track per day.
I also usually "win" my track day or at least am one of the fastest two or three cars at the event (even among F430 Challenge Cars and 996 Cup Cars). I've logged over 15,000 miles at Watkins and know the track quite well.
Back to the pads. I am only getting 4 days out of the DS1.11's. The rears seemed to be holding-up better than the fronts (as expected) until we removed the rear pads and found them to be chunked...basically destroyed even though they had approx 6mm of pad material left.
What at was even more disconcerting is that we calculated that I would be down to 2mm of pad left on the front pads at the end of my fourth track day. We removed the front pads and found that we indeed did have 2mm of material left. The bad news was that the pad material was almost completely detached from the backing plate (basically just hanging there by one of the brass attachments) and were on the verge of falling out of the caliper.
If the pad material became dislodged from the backing plate I would have been in a sh*t-load of trouble in the following braking zone. Going from 165mph down to 95mph in 300 feet would not have been pleasant without brake pads!
My mechanic suggested trying PFC (Performance Friction) pads like I used to run on my C6 Corvette race car.
Just wondering if anyone else here has had a similar experience with the DS1.11's?
On on a side note, I keep getting the warning "Rear axle steering fault, drive with caution." My dealer said the temperature of the rear steering motors are getting too hot on my car but that no permanent damage is being done. Surprised to have this code show-up because I am only running Hoosier R7's and am not on a full slick.
Anyone else have this issue with the rear steering code?
Thanks in advance for your feedback guys!
Hmmm how many pas compounds are available in the AP caliper sizes? Essex only offers a couple on their site.
I have not had any problems with the Ferodo DS1.11 pads. Have used them on my GT4 both with OE calipers and now with the Essex full brake kit, and also with an Essex/AP kit on my BMW.
I find the AP Rad I Cal brake kit for my 991.2 GT3 to be fantastic. Seems to be very durable, with constant and consistent feedback even when pads are wearing-down to the last few millimeters. I also usually "win" my track day or at least am one of the fastest two or three cars at the event (even among F430 Challenge Cars and 996 Cup Cars). I've logged over 15,000 miles at Watkins and know the track quite well.
Awesome Alec! Thanks for the feedback, and we're glad our brake kit is helping to keep you at the front of the pack. Are you able to share any pics of your car?
Originally Posted by AlecG
Many main concern is the durability and quality of the DS1.11 pads. Have to mention a few disclaimers before I get into it about the Ferrodo pads. I run at Watkins Glen which is arguably one of the toughest circuits on brakes in the country. I also run in the "open track" group in my DE events so I get tons of track time. I would guess I get anywhere between 7-9 thirty minute sessions on track per day.
Back to the pads. I am only getting 4 days out of the DS1.11's. The rears seemed to be holding-up better than the fronts (as expected) until we removed the rear pads and found them to be chunked...basically destroyed even though they had approx 6mm of pad material left.
What at was even more disconcerting is that we calculated that I would be down to 2mm of pad left on the front pads at the end of my fourth track day. We removed the front pads and found that we indeed did have 2mm of material left. The bad news was that the pad material was almost completely detached from the backing plate (basically just hanging there by one of the brass attachments) and were on the verge of falling out of the caliper.
If the pad material became dislodged from the backing plate I would have been in a sh*t-load of trouble in the following braking zone. Going from 165mph down to 95mph in 300 feet would not have been pleasant without brake pads!
My mechanic suggested trying PFC (Performance Friction) pads like I used to run on my C6 Corvette race car.
Just wondering if anyone else here has had a similar experience with the DS1.11's?
Thanks in advance for your feedback guys!
Overall notes on pads...Edge crumbling is common with many pads during track use, and isn't typically a concern as long as the bulk of the friction puck is still intact and attached. At 2mm, all bets are off with any race pad, and I'd actually expect them to be completely shot by then. Once you get down to about 5mm remaining, you have to be extremely vigilant, and you have to keep an eye on both inner and outer. Sometimes the inner burns hotter/wears faster and can catch you out. Also of note, as a pad burns closer to the backing plate (the volume of the pad puck drops), there is less heat storage capacity in the pad and it's going to burn more quickly. For example, if you were using up 1mm of pad compound per session when the pads were new, you may be using 1.5mm of material when they are 50% used, and 2.0mm per session when they are getting close to the backing plate. Also, it's completely normal to get a little bit of pad taper, which could be from end-to-end or top-to-bottom. Any amount of taper could give you a false read on just how much material is remaining.
On the Ferodo DS1.11 specifically, we have lots of customers who switched away from various PFC compounds and moved to the DS1.11. I'd venture to say that the vast majority of them have stuck with the Ferodo and have not gone back. Some people are getting many days out of their Ferodo DS1.11. That said, conditions, cars, and drivers vary quite a bit. As noted The Glen is brutal on brakes, you're running stickier tires than some others (many are running street tires), and you're heat-soaking them with all of those sessions in a day (many people are only running 4 sessions per day). It actually sounds like your four days may be the equivalent of someone else's eight days. As a driver, you may also be a bit tougher on the brakes as well. Overall, it sounds like you may be one of our toughest GT3 owners on brakes thus far (an honor in our eyes ). Most of our GT3 brake kit customers have been in the opposite situation. They haven't been able to get the DS1.11's hot enough to easily bed them in, and they aren't seeing any appreciable wear after their track sessions! Have you collected any disc temperature data? I'd be really curious to see what temps you're hitting.
I'm now going to spill the beans on something that I don't believe I've mentioned elsewhere. Ferodo actually has been developing a new endurance racing compound in Europe and Asia. They've had extremely successful campaigns with it on several factory race teams competing in GT3. We've tested some samples on customer cars here in the US, and over the past few weeks on our brake dyno. The results have been extremely impressive. The new compound has a higher max operating temperature, a flatter torque curve, and superior wear rates vs. most of the other compounds we've evaluated recently. Overall mu is a little higher than the current DS1.11 and DSUNO range. You may be a good candidate for this compound. Unfortunately, Ferodo Italy is about to shut down for their August summer vacation, so we may not have these pads in appreciable quantities until they are back and caught up on production. In the meantime, we could try the Ferodo DSUNO and see how they work for you. We've had several customers tell us that they've gotten better wear from the DSUNO vs. the DS1.11. Please shoot me an email at jeff.ritter@essexparts.com, and we'll see what we can do for you.Thanks!
I'm getting 8-10 days out of my DS1.11 fronts, 15 days rear. I've been replacing the pads at 5mm. I run mostly at VIR, which is no peach on brakes either due to high speeds. I think your bigger issue is cooling. You may need to work on more cooling/ducting??
Hmmm how many pas compounds are available in the AP caliper sizes? Essex only offers a couple on their site.
Alcon, AP, Brembo, Carbotech, Circo, CL Brakes, Cobalt, EBC, Endless, Ferodo, G-Loc, Hawk, Mintex, Pagid, PFC, Porterfield, Project Mu, Raybestos, Wilwood, and other manufacturers all make variants of the shapes used in the AP Racing calipers.
I'm getting 8-10 days out of my DS1.11 fronts, 15 days rear. I've been replacing the pads at 5mm. I run mostly at VIR, which is no peach on brakes either due to high speeds. I think your bigger issue is cooling. You may need to work on more cooling/ducting??
Keep in mind that he's running 8 or 9 sessions per day (three hours of track time), which is more like 2 days for the typical HPDE participant. Watkins Glen is definitely harder on brakes than VIR. The only other place where we see such extreme brake wear is Road America. Long, fast straights followed by tighter turns is a recipe for brake abuse.
Additional cooling is a good idea, but I wouldn't suggest going there just yet. In our experience, aftermarket duct solutions on street legal cars aren't terribly effective/efficient. There's too much junk in the nose to properly route larger duct hoses, and there's not enough room inside the fender well to pipe them down into the center of the discs properly. You just can't move enough air. It turns into a fire hose ----> drinking straw bottleneck situation. In our testing on some platforms, we actually have seen an increase in brake disc temps when aftermarket duct kits were added. They can't flow enough air, and simply trap heat against the inner disc face instead. In pro racing, it's a different situation. The cars are purpose-built from the beginning with ducts in mind, and in some cases they have three separate 3" ducts leading to the brakes! Below is a pic I just snapped of an old one I have in my office. It's not quite as sophisticated as what's being used currently, but it's still far more effective than anything we see guys trying to bolt onto road cars.
And yes, that is the rarely seen TI-81 calculator.
I just wanted to jump in, I have a 2018 GT3 with PCCB. I went to Laguna/Auto Club/Buttonwillow with the PCCB. PCCB are great but they aren't consistent. Your brake peddle wouldn't be the same feel at the same corner, next lap. Your grip wouldn't be the same either. Granted, if you are a HPDE guy that goes to the track once in a while, PCCB will be fine for you. I'm the ******* that is always chasing for that extra .1, .2 of time on every single lap.
Given how unhappy I was with the PCCB. I found that AP made a kit that was actually affordable and I could reuse my stock calipers. I got the AP Kit (With DS1.11 Pads) - MAN LET ME TELL YOU. I HAVE YET TO BE IN A CAR THAT BRAKES THAT WELL. I also shaved some time off my lap times since it built confidence before every corner I went into.
I can confidently brake at the same spot, every single lap and have absolutely ZERO fades in peddle or braking power.
The greatest part is, the PCCB is in the box whenever I want to go back to stock. If anyone in SoCal wants to go for a ride (on the track) - Jump into my car at any time. It's seriously amazing.
07-11-2018, 06:35 PM
). Most of our GT3 brake kit customers have been in the opposite situation. They haven't been able to get the DS1.11's hot enough to easily bed them in, and they aren't seeing any appreciable wear after their track sessions! Have you collected any disc temperature data? I'd be really curious to see what temps you're hitting.
