Gravs

I'm only using the information I quoted. That someone is making a living out of flipping new cars. What else do I need to know? I am not making any assumptions. I guess it's ok for people to have different ethics. Some cultures marry 10-yr old girls and others think it's wrong.

On my moral compass someone making money at the expense of others like this is morally wrong. You may choose to think differently.

Any to the guy immediately above, nobody "wants" to pay 40k extra. Some people are forced into it maybe.

LexVan

LOL!!! Completely laughable.

Gravs

Why?

Gravs

Oh well. I can see you’re upset. I did say your beliefs are unethical so I apologise. But in return you have said I have warped ethics and called what I said laughable so maybe we are quits. Let’s agree to differ. P

LexVan

I'm not upset. It's the internet.

No need to apologize. It's all good.

I did NOT say you had warped ethics.

switchcars

I had a meeting with an anti-trust firm. That's another story for another day that's not that interesting. Bottom line: while I could have won the case, Porsche's lawyers have a reputation for playing dirty and that wasn't how I wanted to spend my early 20s. Life is too short to waste years in court unless it's an absolute necessity. I spent the effort instead on building my business.

switchcars

With all due respect, isn't EVERY business that makes a profit doing it at someone else's expense? They certainly can't make money off of themselves...

manitou202

Charging a fee to find unique cars is a legitimate business. If he had 15 clients that paid him to find allocations for the GT3RS that would have been legitimate as well. But going around to 15 different dealerships to get first dibs on a car in high demand, with the intent of flipping the cars for a $40k markup is unethical at best. Yes it's taking advantage of a broken system and is legal, but doesn't mean it's ethical.

hf1

It boggles the mind why Porsche would knowingly sell thousands of allocations $30-50k below market prices to flippers and dealers to auction off to the highest bidders instead of auctioning them off directly and getting the full market price (minus dealers fees/margin) for themselves? Aren't the shareholders watching?

Flippers and dealers are not doing anything wrong by selling "their" allocations and cars at market prices. What's wrong is the privileged and restricted access they enjoy to these cars/allocations at MSRP/invoice. If access was completely free and open to anyone with a checkbook, then the market prices would be pretty much the same except Porsche wouldn't be "donating" huge chunks of the profit margins to the dealers and flippers.

orthojoe

When car flipping involves taking away allocations from legitimate buyers, it's akin to PIRACY in my book. The flipper is robbing from the supplier and gouging the consumer. That is what pirates do. Most buyers are not scumbag flippers like the guy suggests. That is total BS based on some outlier examples that let him sleep at night and justify his BS existence.

The same people that claim 'capitalism' are the same people that claimed 'capitalism' when people were gouging floridians for bottles of water during Irma. Not exactly apples to apples, but it's the same spirit of screwing over people because it's 'fair game' even though its NOT.


That being said, I've come to realize that trying to argue the whole ADM/flipper debate is no different to trying argue politics. You'll never convince other side that you are correct, and the other side will always think you're nuts. It's a futile effort. So we just continue to throw pies at each other.

pitt911

Not trying to defend the guy, but he was willing to take a risk and there was a chance that he could have acquired all these cars and there was a global recession that forced him to sell at a loss .
agree that charging a fee to find a car is the way I will do it, but I will not judge this guy negatively for what he did

manitou202

But they aren't selling thousands of allocations below market price. The majority of buyers still manage to get allocations at MSRP. If Porsche suddenly raised the base MSRP of the 991.2 GT3 to $173,000 I would not be buying one and many people would do the same. There is only a small amount of demand at these prices. This is what the flippers and dealerships are taking advantage of, and they are doing this by artificially creating a more limited supply by allowing allocations to go to flippers and/or holding back cars until someone pays an ADM.

hf1

As I said, the dealers/flippers' privileged access is the problem, nothing else. Allow open access to ALL allocations to everyone with a checkbook, and the flipping and market-cornering problem disappears. The problem is that this privileged access exists, not that its beneficiaries (dealers and flippers) are profiting from it by buying at msrp/invoice and selling at market prices.

The market prices would be pretty much be the same, regardless.

Btw, these "majority of buyers" that get their cars at MSRP are paying the market price premium in other ways ("loyal" service customers, buying 3 low-demand non-GT cars a year at full price, getting raped on trade-ins, etc.).

Freddie Two Bs

**** flippers. They're the same as ticket scalpers. Pond scum, bottom feeders. Good on Porsche for litigating this joker.

Maverick787

I think it's fair to say "gouging" in my opinion is taking advantage of people when it's a need, food, shelter, medical and sure a few others. Average people would call all of us fools for paying close to 200k for a car, and rest my grandfathers soul he would call me a fool many times over. With that said we're privedleged to play in the space, but some will cry wolf when someone pays a crazy ADM that want the car now. I do call that capitalism because it let's the market sort itself out, and no one is forced to pay an ADM. I've owned four Porsche's 991S below MSRP, GT3 MSRP, GT3 RS slightly above MSRP, boxster Spyder slightly over MSRP which I was willing to pay due to limited spec. Thus far no intentions on selling the RS nor Spyder I enjoy them that much.

Many people on this board want the latest and greatest now which drives the flipper market causing the hype. People will make money on any product when the I need it now factor occurres no right answer, but let people spend their money how they choose. I disagree with a flipper taking a car away from someone who really wants it? Someone just wants it more because he has the cash. If everyone just waits it will play out, and the hype dies and guess what you get a deal ......but to drive it first will cost many. This board has turned into bashing flippers, people who pay ADM's reality in life someone people have more money than they can spend. We look silly fussing over the price of 200k cars. I buy my cars to enjoy and can care less what it's worth it's a sunk cost the trade off is personal enjoyment. Some buy multiple cars to stay in good graces with the dealer .....that's a sham to me because you're buying something you don't want. Me and my dealer became friends because of common interest and I got a .2 at MSRP which I declined because I like my RS. I do believe relationships are key in this business, and many flippers have those same relationships. This will never change, and Porsche knows what they are doing because the have the best margins in the business. They love reading this board when many tell them to raise prices, and guess what they do because we asked for it(: