Steels for PCCBs??
09-24-2017, 07:51 AM
#46
Rennlist Member
I've found this tool useful:
http://www.racetechnologies.com/brake-pad-comparison
09-24-2017, 08:57 AM
#47
Rennlist Member
How to tell when it is ready for replacement would require reviewing a PDF file I have available with pictures of oxidation and friction surface wear to compare, or simply taking some pictures and sending them over to us to review for you. The refurbishment process costs $2k per occurrence, rather than $25k per occurrence with PCCB's since you have to replace them. For your other questions I took some excerpts from the ST release I'm working on for you to reference.
Difference in Construction
Unlike conventional ceramic rotor manufacturing processes using discontinuous (chopped) carbon fiber held together by a silicon resin, Surface Transforms rotors are made from unidirectional carbon sheets that are layered in alternating directions (similar to making plywood). After each layer is applied, an oscillating machine is used to push and pull a bed of barbed needles through the sheet material to interweave them together. This carbon fiber pre-form is then put through a chemical infusion process that grows the carbon into the rotor. The thermal conductivity is then further improved by heating it up to over 2000°C which generates an even more heat-conductive graphitic structure. The carbon rotor blank is then CNC machined into shape and a liquid silicon metal mixture infiltrated into the carbon blank to fill the entire carbon structure. The silicon is then reacted with the carbon to create the silicon carbide matrix that holds the now carbon ceramic together. This is followed by final machining and balancing, and by the application of the protective coating on the rotor to prevent oxidation. Final assembly then takes place with the rotor hat and it is boxed up and shipped out.
Lower Operating Temperatures:
ST rotors use a CVI (chemical vaper infiltration) process that is a way of growing a particular type of carbon that is highly ordered with a much higher level of conductivity. They also use a heat treatment process that increases that conductivity further. This means their rotors conduct heat through the rotor material 3x quicker than conventional carbon ceramic rotors, so during the “cooldown phase” their rotors are able to get the heat from the surface, through the vent hole and away from the rotor 3x faster. Because of this, their rotors run a much cooler average temperature than the conventional rotors. Surface Transforms also applies a liquid solution which attaches to the carbon atoms, effectively stopping the carbon from oxidizing at high temperatures, and protecting the disc from wear up to 700 degrees Celsius. This means that during typical operating temperatures on track the life of the rotor is significantly improved. Only as you crest over 700 degrees Celsius do you start to oxidize the outer layer the rotor. This is why Surface Transforms rotors (and the pads used) last a noticeable amount longer than that of the conventional carbon ceramic rotors.
Refurbishable
Contrary to Surface Transform rotors, conventional carbon ceramic rotors have a service life that is dependent on the weight of the rotor due to the amount of carbon loss from oxidation. This comes along quickly in their life cycle due a manufacturing process that allows oxidation throughout the whole rotor. The reason that conventional rotors are weighed during a brake check is because their end-of-life is defined by the safe operating strength of the material, which is measured by the weight-loss of carbon that has oxidized from the whole rotor. The fact that the entire rotor oxidizes carbon and has chopped carbon ceramic composition means that it is no longer strong enough to reuse, and cannot be resurfaced. On the other hand, Surface Transforms’ layered carbon ceramic composition oxidizes carbon much slower at a much higher average temperature, hence the reason they initially last much longer than conventional rotors. In addition, this carbon oxidation is restricted to the friction surface of the rotor which maintains the rotor’s strength. Therefore unlike conventional rotors, the retained strength and unique composition allows them to be refurbished by removing the oxidized outer layer and reapplying the anti-oxidation protective coating. This resets the life of the rotor back to zero, and depending on the depth of oxidation damage to the rotor surface, this can be done an average of 4 to 5 times.
Difference in Construction
Unlike conventional ceramic rotor manufacturing processes using discontinuous (chopped) carbon fiber held together by a silicon resin, Surface Transforms rotors are made from unidirectional carbon sheets that are layered in alternating directions (similar to making plywood). After each layer is applied, an oscillating machine is used to push and pull a bed of barbed needles through the sheet material to interweave them together. This carbon fiber pre-form is then put through a chemical infusion process that grows the carbon into the rotor. The thermal conductivity is then further improved by heating it up to over 2000°C which generates an even more heat-conductive graphitic structure. The carbon rotor blank is then CNC machined into shape and a liquid silicon metal mixture infiltrated into the carbon blank to fill the entire carbon structure. The silicon is then reacted with the carbon to create the silicon carbide matrix that holds the now carbon ceramic together. This is followed by final machining and balancing, and by the application of the protective coating on the rotor to prevent oxidation. Final assembly then takes place with the rotor hat and it is boxed up and shipped out.
Lower Operating Temperatures:
ST rotors use a CVI (chemical vaper infiltration) process that is a way of growing a particular type of carbon that is highly ordered with a much higher level of conductivity. They also use a heat treatment process that increases that conductivity further. This means their rotors conduct heat through the rotor material 3x quicker than conventional carbon ceramic rotors, so during the “cooldown phase” their rotors are able to get the heat from the surface, through the vent hole and away from the rotor 3x faster. Because of this, their rotors run a much cooler average temperature than the conventional rotors. Surface Transforms also applies a liquid solution which attaches to the carbon atoms, effectively stopping the carbon from oxidizing at high temperatures, and protecting the disc from wear up to 700 degrees Celsius. This means that during typical operating temperatures on track the life of the rotor is significantly improved. Only as you crest over 700 degrees Celsius do you start to oxidize the outer layer the rotor. This is why Surface Transforms rotors (and the pads used) last a noticeable amount longer than that of the conventional carbon ceramic rotors.
Refurbishable
Contrary to Surface Transform rotors, conventional carbon ceramic rotors have a service life that is dependent on the weight of the rotor due to the amount of carbon loss from oxidation. This comes along quickly in their life cycle due a manufacturing process that allows oxidation throughout the whole rotor. The reason that conventional rotors are weighed during a brake check is because their end-of-life is defined by the safe operating strength of the material, which is measured by the weight-loss of carbon that has oxidized from the whole rotor. The fact that the entire rotor oxidizes carbon and has chopped carbon ceramic composition means that it is no longer strong enough to reuse, and cannot be resurfaced. On the other hand, Surface Transforms’ layered carbon ceramic composition oxidizes carbon much slower at a much higher average temperature, hence the reason they initially last much longer than conventional rotors. In addition, this carbon oxidation is restricted to the friction surface of the rotor which maintains the rotor’s strength. Therefore unlike conventional rotors, the retained strength and unique composition allows them to be refurbished by removing the oxidized outer layer and reapplying the anti-oxidation protective coating. This resets the life of the rotor back to zero, and depending on the depth of oxidation damage to the rotor surface, this can be done an average of 4 to 5 times.
THe PCCB "yellow calipers" and the Iron "red calipers" take the same pad shape. The difference between the 2 is small if any.
The yellow calipers work fine with the steel/iron race pad and iron rotors.
Have done over 50 PCCB to iron conversions on GT4s and 991 GT3s using Giro Disc rotors and Ferodo DS1.11 pads for track cars. Package cost is in the neighborhood of $3800. All conversions have been highly successful.
If you can afford $24,000 for rotor replacement or $11,000 for surface transforms....have at it. Most are really happy to go to iron....put the PCCBs on the shelf...and put them back on when the car is sold.
The yellow calipers work fine with the steel/iron race pad and iron rotors.
Have done over 50 PCCB to iron conversions on GT4s and 991 GT3s using Giro Disc rotors and Ferodo DS1.11 pads for track cars. Package cost is in the neighborhood of $3800. All conversions have been highly successful.
If you can afford $24,000 for rotor replacement or $11,000 for surface transforms....have at it. Most are really happy to go to iron....put the PCCBs on the shelf...and put them back on when the car is sold.
Ive run RE10 with OEM rotors since new.
Front: oem 20 days rotors and 10 days RE10 pads
Rear: oem 60 days rotors and 20 days RE10 pads
I went through 17 sets of tires so these brakes are very good as long as the ceramic pucks do not go bad. The car is now at the dealer to get pucks inspected. Because they don’t sell theses separately Porsche SHOULD replace them under warranty. I know they have done so without German customers..
If not I will put in Autoquest Ti replacements.
Perfectly happy with OEM rotors and RE10 pads and just had new rotors and Ferrodo pads installed to do a bit more testing for Clarke to compare the cheaper Ferrodo life as well as rotor life.
I expect no performance difference with these pads, if anything a bit different feel.
Now the ceramic ST rotors and whatever pads should make a real difference on the car. I can make my car available to do some real back to back testing of the lightweight rotors to experience the feel and wear at Sebring, probably the most grueling track for brakes..
Just the insprung weight alone should make the car faster.
A 180lb passenger of SPRUNG weight is 1.4 seconds at Sebring.
SPRUNG should make a bigger difference per lb.
running cost all depends on refurbishment intervals and cost, but generally, if you want to go faster, it is more expensive.
It would be a great test to do before it’s time to lock in the GT3.2RS order :-)
If I can measure an improvement then smaller and lighter wheels should be next.
The difficult logistics to prove it, is to make these changes AT THE TRACK, same day, same driver with Data analysis...
I know a guy
09-24-2017, 12:39 PM
#48
Trakcar
As I recall from seeing your car at Sebring earlier this year, you were running OEM cast iron, correct? So when your refer to running OEM rotors and RE10 pads, you were referencing the cast iron rotors?
Are you switching to ST ceramic rotors now? I had an extensive conversation with Gavin who was very open with the differences in feel between the ST rotors running with the Pagid RSC1s and the PCCBs, plus and minus, mostly positive. I am leaning to trying out the OEM cast iron brakes that I bought for my 2015 GT3, but will wait to hear your view of the ST rotors before proceeding.
As I recall from seeing your car at Sebring earlier this year, you were running OEM cast iron, correct? So when your refer to running OEM rotors and RE10 pads, you were referencing the cast iron rotors?
Are you switching to ST ceramic rotors now? I had an extensive conversation with Gavin who was very open with the differences in feel between the ST rotors running with the Pagid RSC1s and the PCCBs, plus and minus, mostly positive. I am leaning to trying out the OEM cast iron brakes that I bought for my 2015 GT3, but will wait to hear your view of the ST rotors before proceeding.
09-24-2017, 12:54 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
Yes, Cast Iron OEM rotors.
I’d love to experiment with some new stuff this winter at Sebring.
Brings new challenges. The last two winters I worked on setup fully OEM and got down to a 2:15 and 2:16’s
Now side muffler delete, DSC suspension module already done and I maybe I should try the diffuser and a lightweight battery. And diet LOL.
I’d love to experiment with some new stuff this winter at Sebring.
Brings new challenges. The last two winters I worked on setup fully OEM and got down to a 2:15 and 2:16’s
Now side muffler delete, DSC suspension module already done and I maybe I should try the diffuser and a lightweight battery. And diet LOL.
09-24-2017, 01:05 PM
#50
Yes, Cast Iron OEM rotors.
I’d love to experiment with some new stuff this winter at Sebring.
Brings new challenges. The last two winters I worked on setup fully OEM and got down to a 2:15 and 2:16’s
Now side muffler delete, DSC suspension module already done and I maybe I should try the diffuser and a lightweight battery. And diet LOL.
I’d love to experiment with some new stuff this winter at Sebring.
Brings new challenges. The last two winters I worked on setup fully OEM and got down to a 2:15 and 2:16’s
Now side muffler delete, DSC suspension module already done and I maybe I should try the diffuser and a lightweight battery. And diet LOL.
09-24-2017, 01:34 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
How have the giros been ? I’m going to make the switch but I’m debating whether to wait for the j hooks or just do giros now. Probably only have one event for the season left so I could wait.
09-24-2017, 06:51 PM
#52
Three Wheelin'
I love them...paired with Ferodo ds1.11 I think initial bite is much better and has more even pedal pressure ...I think J hooks would give similar excellent results from others I have talked to in the paddock
09-24-2017, 09:16 PM
#53
Can someone confirm that the yellow calipers sit on spacers? If they do removing them should be an easy swap for OEM steel rotors... What is the thickness difference between PCCB and irons?
09-24-2017, 11:14 PM
#54
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
PCCB rotors are 2mm thicker than iron (36mm vs 34mm Front and 32mm vs. 30mm Rear). I don't think it's necessary, but you could shave 1mm off each pad to give the extra clearance for PCCB's (if it is necessary) with red calipers on spacers.
09-25-2017, 10:03 AM
#55
Basic Sponsor
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The AP J Hook rotors are not currently available as a replacement for the PCCBs for the 991 GT3. However the J Hooks are in the pipeline to be made but I am not sure when they will be available.
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09-26-2017, 05:44 AM
#56
Former Vendor
Wow, someone actually agrees with me. Been saying this forever. I have PCCB on my C2S and the iron Carrera S brakes on my Spyder and they are night and day in terms of feel. I had no choice on the Spyder due to slim pickings, but I'd never spec a new Porsche without PCCB, even if I was going to track it. If it wasn't so ridiculously expensive aftermarket, I'd convert my Spyder.
John and Clarke are both on point and well respected vendors, sponsors and contributors here.
Ive run RE10 with OEM rotors since new.
Front: oem 20 days rotors and 10 days RE10 pads
Rear: oem 60 days rotors and 20 days RE10 pads
I went through 17 sets of tires so these brakes are very good as long as the ceramic pucks do not go bad. The car is now at the dealer to get pucks inspected. Because they don’t sell theses separately Porsche SHOULD replace them under warranty. I know they have done so without German customers..
If not I will put in Autoquest Ti replacements.
Perfectly happy with OEM rotors and RE10 pads and just had new rotors and Ferrodo pads installed to do a bit more testing for Clarke to compare the cheaper Ferrodo life as well as rotor life.
I expect no performance difference with these pads, if anything a bit different feel.
Now the ceramic ST rotors and whatever pads should make a real difference on the car. I can make my car available to do some real back to back testing of the lightweight rotors to experience the feel and wear at Sebring, probably the most grueling track for brakes..
Just the insprung weight alone should make the car faster.
A 180lb passenger of SPRUNG weight is 1.4 seconds at Sebring.
SPRUNG should make a bigger difference per lb.
running cost all depends on refurbishment intervals and cost, but generally, if you want to go faster, it is more expensive.
It would be a great test to do before it’s time to lock in the GT3.2RS order :-)
If I can measure an improvement then smaller and lighter wheels should be next.
The difficult logistics to prove it, is to make these changes AT THE TRACK, same day, same driver with Data analysis...
I know a guy
Ive run RE10 with OEM rotors since new.
Front: oem 20 days rotors and 10 days RE10 pads
Rear: oem 60 days rotors and 20 days RE10 pads
I went through 17 sets of tires so these brakes are very good as long as the ceramic pucks do not go bad. The car is now at the dealer to get pucks inspected. Because they don’t sell theses separately Porsche SHOULD replace them under warranty. I know they have done so without German customers..
If not I will put in Autoquest Ti replacements.
Perfectly happy with OEM rotors and RE10 pads and just had new rotors and Ferrodo pads installed to do a bit more testing for Clarke to compare the cheaper Ferrodo life as well as rotor life.
I expect no performance difference with these pads, if anything a bit different feel.
Now the ceramic ST rotors and whatever pads should make a real difference on the car. I can make my car available to do some real back to back testing of the lightweight rotors to experience the feel and wear at Sebring, probably the most grueling track for brakes..
Just the insprung weight alone should make the car faster.
A 180lb passenger of SPRUNG weight is 1.4 seconds at Sebring.
SPRUNG should make a bigger difference per lb.
running cost all depends on refurbishment intervals and cost, but generally, if you want to go faster, it is more expensive.
It would be a great test to do before it’s time to lock in the GT3.2RS order :-)
If I can measure an improvement then smaller and lighter wheels should be next.
The difficult logistics to prove it, is to make these changes AT THE TRACK, same day, same driver with Data analysis...
I know a guy
Yes, Cast Iron OEM rotors.
I’d love to experiment with some new stuff this winter at Sebring.
Brings new challenges. The last two winters I worked on setup fully OEM and got down to a 2:15 and 2:16’s
Now side muffler delete, DSC suspension module already done and I maybe I should try the diffuser and a lightweight battery. And diet LOL.
I’d love to experiment with some new stuff this winter at Sebring.
Brings new challenges. The last two winters I worked on setup fully OEM and got down to a 2:15 and 2:16’s
Now side muffler delete, DSC suspension module already done and I maybe I should try the diffuser and a lightweight battery. And diet LOL.
BTW impressive times in the 2:15s! Gavin got a GT4 with our Multi Link Rear Suspension System and some other AutoQuest goodies into the 2:15s, but it took Pirelli slicks lol.
Trakcar
As I recall from seeing your car at Sebring earlier this year, you were running OEM cast iron, correct? So when your refer to running OEM rotors and RE10 pads, you were referencing the cast iron rotors?
Are you switching to ST ceramic rotors now? I had an extensive conversation with Gavin who was very open with the differences in feel between the ST rotors running with the Pagid RSC1s and the PCCBs, plus and minus, mostly positive. I am leaning to trying out the OEM cast iron brakes that I bought for my 2015 GT3, but will wait to hear your view of the ST rotors before proceeding.
As I recall from seeing your car at Sebring earlier this year, you were running OEM cast iron, correct? So when your refer to running OEM rotors and RE10 pads, you were referencing the cast iron rotors?
Are you switching to ST ceramic rotors now? I had an extensive conversation with Gavin who was very open with the differences in feel between the ST rotors running with the Pagid RSC1s and the PCCBs, plus and minus, mostly positive. I am leaning to trying out the OEM cast iron brakes that I bought for my 2015 GT3, but will wait to hear your view of the ST rotors before proceeding.
Great analysis/comparison earlier in the thread by the way
09-30-2017, 07:46 PM
#57
Surface Transforms Rotors
I wanted to share that I ran a set on my GT3 991.1 and they were great. I put my PCCBs away for safekeeping.
I used Pagid RSC1, a pad that is not aggressive. The feel was linear, the harder you press, the more you get. As they warmed, there was a detectable increase in bite, but not digital.
The ST rotor set is now for sale at a good price, as I sold my GT3 991.1 and put the PCCBs back on it.
PM me for details.
Regards,
UJ
I used Pagid RSC1, a pad that is not aggressive. The feel was linear, the harder you press, the more you get. As they warmed, there was a detectable increase in bite, but not digital.
The ST rotor set is now for sale at a good price, as I sold my GT3 991.1 and put the PCCBs back on it.
PM me for details.
Regards,
UJ
10-02-2017, 10:22 AM
#58
Former Vendor
I wanted to share that I ran a set on my GT3 991.1 and they were great. I put my PCCBs away for safekeeping.
I used Pagid RSC1, a pad that is not aggressive. The feel was linear, the harder you press, the more you get. As they warmed, there was a detectable increase in bite, but not digital.
The ST rotor set is now for sale at a good price, as I sold my GT3 991.1 and put the PCCBs back on it.
PM me for details.
Regards,
UJ
I used Pagid RSC1, a pad that is not aggressive. The feel was linear, the harder you press, the more you get. As they warmed, there was a detectable increase in bite, but not digital.
The ST rotor set is now for sale at a good price, as I sold my GT3 991.1 and put the PCCBs back on it.
PM me for details.
Regards,
UJ