2242 miles on a sports clutch and failure
07-03-2012, 01:16 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2242 miles on a sports clutch and failure
Now we're talking ridiculous...
For those of you that followed my thread here...
http://www.planet-9.com/cayman-boxst...h-install.html
...that procedure and everything that followed was brutal (and expensive). For those of you that didn't read - basically we pulled and original clutch and flywheel at 55,000 miles and replaced with the Fuchs sport friction disk, sport pressure plate and LUK dual mass flywheel (see the photos in that original thread). We then went through a series of issues with leaks that were unrelated to the clutch job (except leaving out the main shaft seal in the transmission) but the car was never driven long enough during the leaking to splash those components with oil. But after 2200 miles I lost the clutch completely at an autocross event. So yeah, I autocross the car (we did three events before failure) and daily drive once or twice a week to work. When I autocross this Cayman S, I put on 18" wheels with 285 and 245 Hoosier A2 tires. If you look at the attached photos you'll see what the friction plate and flywheel looked like when we pulled them. The friction plates material has flown off from the outside edges. It was a different material than the OEM plate had. Much like fiberglass and had imbedded itself into the pressure plates inner areas. Maybe clogging enough to prevent the spring "fingers" from releasing properly. The flywheel was heavily scored and burned. Fuchs states in the sales info that the sport friction plate is made of "organic" material. What's that supposed to mean?
Anyway... we've gone back in and put in OEM friction plate, pressure plate and another flywheel. That's another $1000 in parts. Thank goodness I'm getting free lift time and have a good buddy who joins me in doing this work. This was our 6th time taking the transmission out. We had it out, components replaced and back in - 3 1/2 hours.
So moving forward, what can I expect? I'm going to continue to autocross this car (two more events planned this year) and I have to run those Hoosiers to be competitive. Is it the extra grip and mass that's causing excessive wear? Surely Porsche would expect end users to add more grip! Some will say "always dump the clutch" but can you really do that in slow traffic or elevated parking garages?
A long time autocrosser and engineer saw the exposed clutch and flywheel while we had the car car on the lift. He commented that the clutch looked really small for that size transmission and engine. And I know from changing a clutch on a 2.5L Boxster that it's basically the same size on a 3.4L Cayman S. A design flaw on Porsche's behalf?
For those of you that followed my thread here...
http://www.planet-9.com/cayman-boxst...h-install.html
...that procedure and everything that followed was brutal (and expensive). For those of you that didn't read - basically we pulled and original clutch and flywheel at 55,000 miles and replaced with the Fuchs sport friction disk, sport pressure plate and LUK dual mass flywheel (see the photos in that original thread). We then went through a series of issues with leaks that were unrelated to the clutch job (except leaving out the main shaft seal in the transmission) but the car was never driven long enough during the leaking to splash those components with oil. But after 2200 miles I lost the clutch completely at an autocross event. So yeah, I autocross the car (we did three events before failure) and daily drive once or twice a week to work. When I autocross this Cayman S, I put on 18" wheels with 285 and 245 Hoosier A2 tires. If you look at the attached photos you'll see what the friction plate and flywheel looked like when we pulled them. The friction plates material has flown off from the outside edges. It was a different material than the OEM plate had. Much like fiberglass and had imbedded itself into the pressure plates inner areas. Maybe clogging enough to prevent the spring "fingers" from releasing properly. The flywheel was heavily scored and burned. Fuchs states in the sales info that the sport friction plate is made of "organic" material. What's that supposed to mean?
Anyway... we've gone back in and put in OEM friction plate, pressure plate and another flywheel. That's another $1000 in parts. Thank goodness I'm getting free lift time and have a good buddy who joins me in doing this work. This was our 6th time taking the transmission out. We had it out, components replaced and back in - 3 1/2 hours.
So moving forward, what can I expect? I'm going to continue to autocross this car (two more events planned this year) and I have to run those Hoosiers to be competitive. Is it the extra grip and mass that's causing excessive wear? Surely Porsche would expect end users to add more grip! Some will say "always dump the clutch" but can you really do that in slow traffic or elevated parking garages?
A long time autocrosser and engineer saw the exposed clutch and flywheel while we had the car car on the lift. He commented that the clutch looked really small for that size transmission and engine. And I know from changing a clutch on a 2.5L Boxster that it's basically the same size on a 3.4L Cayman S. A design flaw on Porsche's behalf?
07-04-2012, 03:10 PM
#2
Race Director
"organic" means there is no metal in the friction material.
Asbestos of course is verboten and was replaced by copper which in some areas has been banned and I do not know what clutch discs (and brake pads) now contain. No asbestos, copper, depleted uranium, etc, that's for sure.
Assuming the clutch hardware was the right hardware for this application there was either a manufacturing defect or a problem with the installation or a latent problem with say a motor mount or transmission mount that results in improper clutch action.
Genuine Porsche parts bought through a dealer and which bought the parts from PCNA are covered by a parts warranty.
The difficulty in getting satisfaction is it will have to be shown to the dealer and PCNA the installation was not at fault.
Based on my 1st hand experience on the street with my cars and my second hand experience with cars of others in auto-x and track usage the clutch, stock or aftermarket should last a long time provided -- please do not take offense -- the driver is not a complete screw up when it comes to driving a manual car.
I'm sure this is not the case in your case, but this is the only other thing I can think of.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Asbestos of course is verboten and was replaced by copper which in some areas has been banned and I do not know what clutch discs (and brake pads) now contain. No asbestos, copper, depleted uranium, etc, that's for sure.
Assuming the clutch hardware was the right hardware for this application there was either a manufacturing defect or a problem with the installation or a latent problem with say a motor mount or transmission mount that results in improper clutch action.
Genuine Porsche parts bought through a dealer and which bought the parts from PCNA are covered by a parts warranty.
The difficulty in getting satisfaction is it will have to be shown to the dealer and PCNA the installation was not at fault.
Based on my 1st hand experience on the street with my cars and my second hand experience with cars of others in auto-x and track usage the clutch, stock or aftermarket should last a long time provided -- please do not take offense -- the driver is not a complete screw up when it comes to driving a manual car.
I'm sure this is not the case in your case, but this is the only other thing I can think of.
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-05-2012, 08:22 AM
#3
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"organic" means there is no metal in the friction material.
Asbestos of course is verboten and was replaced by copper which in some areas has been banned and I do not know what clutch discs (and brake pads) now contain. No asbestos, copper, depleted uranium, etc, that's for sure.
Assuming the clutch hardware was the right hardware for this application there was either a manufacturing defect or a problem with the installation or a latent problem with say a motor mount or transmission mount that results in improper clutch action.
Genuine Porsche parts bought through a dealer and which bought the parts from PCNA are covered by a parts warranty.
The difficulty in getting satisfaction is it will have to be shown to the dealer and PCNA the installation was not at fault.
Based on my 1st hand experience on the street with my cars and my second hand experience with cars of others in auto-x and track usage the clutch, stock or aftermarket should last a long time provided -- please do not take offense -- the driver is not a complete screw up when it comes to driving a manual car.
I'm sure this is not the case in your case, but this is the only other thing I can think of.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Asbestos of course is verboten and was replaced by copper which in some areas has been banned and I do not know what clutch discs (and brake pads) now contain. No asbestos, copper, depleted uranium, etc, that's for sure.
Assuming the clutch hardware was the right hardware for this application there was either a manufacturing defect or a problem with the installation or a latent problem with say a motor mount or transmission mount that results in improper clutch action.
Genuine Porsche parts bought through a dealer and which bought the parts from PCNA are covered by a parts warranty.
The difficulty in getting satisfaction is it will have to be shown to the dealer and PCNA the installation was not at fault.
Based on my 1st hand experience on the street with my cars and my second hand experience with cars of others in auto-x and track usage the clutch, stock or aftermarket should last a long time provided -- please do not take offense -- the driver is not a complete screw up when it comes to driving a manual car.
I'm sure this is not the case in your case, but this is the only other thing I can think of.
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-05-2012, 11:31 AM
#4
Race Director
I read of a person who's indy mechanic sourced an engine from a dealer only to have the engine go **** up after installation. The indy made a case for the engine being defective -- I can't imagine the work involved -- and was successful in getting the dealer (and I guess PCNA/factory) to agree and another engine was supplied while the defective replacement engine was returned, so if it can be done for an engine it ought to be doable for a clutch.
Sincerely,
Macster.
