MVDESQ

I see that there is a guards red 2007 Boxster S 6-speed in Miami at a Porsche dealer. The car has like 16,000 miles and has like zero options. They are asking $40,9xx for it and it is certified. Is this a fair price? Seems like of high to me. I am going to be down in S.FL next week so I figured I'd look as red cars are hard to find in the NY metro area.

If I look at it what should I be on the look out for? Is a PPI needed with a good car fax and certified preowned Porsche warranty to 2/28/2013?

Macster

Based on my observations the market is picking up a bit on Boxsters/Caymans. Still $40.9K for an 07 even with 16K miles seems a mite high.

'bout all I can advise is do a search of similar cars on www.autotrader.com and see how many cars there are and the price ranges, miles, etc. You'll get asking prices of course but it lets you know the price of the car you're looking at at least is priced at something close to what other similar cars are priced.

Visit www.kbb.com and fill out the forms and get the car's wholesale, private sale and retail sale prices.

First the car is just a used car so a thorough/complete used car check out is called for. Briefly, you assume nothing works until you verify it does work. From horn to headlights. From A/C to brakes. From console lid to top.

A full checklist might cover two pages.

I like to recommend a longish test ride followed by a test drive.

Briefly, the order is:

Vital fluid levels ok. Cold engine/car. A/C off. (If the A/C on the fans run all the time and the engine runs cooler than it would with the A/C off. During the test ride/drive you want to get the engine as hot as it will get. Don't worry. The radiator fans turn on (low speed) at 212F (high speed around 216F) and turn off at 205F, so unless the car is sick sick sick the engine will not overheat.)

Verify all dash warning lights come on (especially check engine light) then go off as the engine starts and begins to run.

Engine should fire up smartly and settle into a high speed (>1000 rpms but not by much) idle and the idle should relatively smooth. As the engine warms up the idle speed will drop and the idle will get smoother.

There should be no ticking, clicking, rattling, or knocking as the engine starts, begins to run, idles, and warms up.

Now you might hear a bit of clatter -- from the zero lash valve lifters that have lost some oil from the engine sitting unused -- or even the faint sound of a chain being dragged over a board breifly upon startup. This arises from chain slack because of engine oil that has bled down from the chain tensioners. But even these noises while normal are only normal if they are not very loud and don't last more than a second or so and don't appear at any other time while the engine is running or if it is shut off and started again in a few minutes or even a few hours.

Let the engine idle and warm up while you walk around the car and listen to the engine. Ideally you should have the engine compartment exposed so you can hear the engine with as little sound deadening material between you and the engine as possible.

After the engine has idled its way to almost warmed up have the seller take you on a drive. You ride as passenger. You want the route to cover around 15 miles and you want the driving on the route to encompass as much variety as possible. City driving with lots of stops/starts. Slow but steady cruising at city surface street speeds, blvd. speeds, and of course some highway speed cruising too.

When the engine fully up to temp have the driver from just off idle in 2nd gear accelerate up to redline then shift into 3rd and keep his foot planted as long as he dares/can safely. You want to experience the engine pulling good and hard all the way through its rev range through at least 2 adjacent gears.

Back at the starting point with the engine nice and hot let it continue to idle and listen some more. If quiet you head out on a test drive this time you drive the car and follow the same route, drive the car the same way, and verify the car steers, stops, accelerates, shifts, etc., just fine.

The idea is to get the engine nice and hot and fully up to temp and then give it a chance to make noise, set a check engine light, overheat, give you any sign you don't want to own the car.

If all is well, then you do a full used car check out. With a list. Takes an hour maybe more.

If you can find no reason to reject the car, and you believe you can buy the car at an acceptable price, then ideally you want to arrange for some uninterested but qualified party to do a PPI and if necessary in your area a smog or safety check ensuring the car will pass any required for the car in where you will drive the car.

The PPI should verify the car's alignment is reasonable, that it is not way off (due to poor accident damage repair), or that all the adjustment has not been used up to bring an accident damaged/bent car into alignment (Porsche says this is a no no!).

I'd like to see the oil filter housing dropped and the oil poured out into a clean drain pan to see there's nothing scary in the oil or trapped by the filter element. You're looking for ferrous metal (take a magnet), or bits of composite plastic (dark, almost black, and caramel colored), bits of green soft plastic (o-ring/seals). A bit of very fine aluminum metal flake you can't feel between your fingers is not a real problem, unless there's lots of it.

A readout of the DME showing the overrev ranges counts is a good idea too.

Then if the PPI turns up nothing buy the car.

Sincerely,

Macster.

MVDESQ

Thanks for the insight.

Yesterday, I did a cars.com and autotrader.com search for all 2007 S cars for sale from coast to coast. They all seem to be that high. I think the car is like $5-6k overpriced based on online value databases.

Is a ppi necessary if it is from a dealer and certified? I usually lease brand new cars so I'm kind of new to this used car game. I know that PPI is a must on a Ferrari but are these cars less likely to have issues if inside the factory warranty period and offered with the porsche certified extended warranty?

I must have a read one and I cannot travel around the country to see them in person and paint test the paint, etc. before I decide on a ppi and/or purchase.

MVDESQ

I meant red one.

Macster

Usually I will set the search to include all MYs of a particular model run. For instance, in the case of a 2007 Boxster S, this is a 987, so I'd start with the 1st MY the 987 appeared (2006? or was it 2005?) and end with 2008.

The car is priced high, I can almost guarantee it. If a car is offered for sale, it is priced optimistically. But you have to remember price is not fact only an opinion. The seller is entitled to his opinion, you are entitled to your's.

Generally the dealer has less than low blue book (low wholesale) in the car. The dealer or an autobroker it uses has access to the latest auction prices and the dealer's not going to offer much over what it knows it can get for the car should it be forced to liquidate it at an auction.

Porsche dealers strive to pick up cherry cars so they don't have to do more than just wash/wax and wipe down the inside of the car then put it on the floor or lot.

So, the car's worth at the bottom around low blue book and whatever you want to pay on the upside.

Most of us can't travel hither and yon looking at cars. But the seller doesn't have to know you can't or won't travel to the ends of the earth for the right car at the price. I search the entire USA and use the number of cars and the prices to help drive a better bargain for a car I find locally. And almost invariably, in fact invariably (so far), I've found 3 perfect Porsches at local dealers. One in the KC MO area when I lived in that area. More recently (in 2008) a Cayman in Walnut Creek, CA (after of course I relocated to CA) and the 3rd at Fremont CA. All 3 cars were within 40 to 50 miles of where I lived at the time. I'm blessed in that I live in a area with 7 (Stevens Creek, Carlsen, F-J, Rector, Stead, Livermore and the one in the north bay) nearby (hour's drive) Porsche dealers. (Sacramento dealer's just an hour and a half away.)

Even though I shop locally, when I step on the local dealer's lot or in his showroom, you can be sure I can quote from memory various other dealers' stock, prices, etc., to show the dealer I'm talking to I know the market, I'm aware of what's available and for how long they've been available.

CPO is a toughie. It means 'certified probably ok'. Mistakes have been made. Things have been missed. If you're really good (or lucky) at checking out a used car and if you can see all the CPO paperwork beforehand and see for instance a DME readout of the overrevs and see nothing's wrong, if you can subject the car to a thorough test ride then drive and your checkout of the car turns up no problems and basically your checkout confirms the CPO checkout, you don't find anything that disagrees with the CPO checkout, you can skip the PPI. There's a risk in doing so. The risk is small. But it is not zero.

The risk is for instance, what happens say if you take the car and the clutch starts to slip on the way home? You stop in at a on the way dealer thinking you're going to get a new clutch installed courtesy of the CPO warranty. But the CPO inspection claims the clutch was just fine so the dealer you stopped at denies the clutch job is covered. (Or more likely it would contact PCNA and PCNA would deny the claim based on a CPO report the selling dealer filed with PCNA, a report of which you should have a copy.)

The thinking is the problem happened after you bought the car. It was not a pre-existing condition or it would have been noted on the CPO inspection and addressed. Thus, you could be on the hook for the clutch job.

The idea is whether you are shopping 10 miles away or 1000 miles away you do all you can to learn about the car in mind. Then you visit the car. You look it over and do what you can to decide if the car is what you want, is in the condition you were led to believe it was in, and so on.

Then you PPI the car. But you only PPI one car: The car you end up buying. If you visit a distant dealer and find something wrong with the car, you need to get better at your long distance checking out of a car. If you visit a distant dealer and after looking over the car decide to have the car PPI'd and the PPI rejects the car you need to get better at your at the car checking out.

Sincerely,

Macster.