Cayman R: Can't get my deposit back
12-16-2010, 11:38 PM
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Cayman R: Can't get my deposit back
Hi,
After the Cayman R unveiling in Nov, I was pretty excited and gave my dealer in Alabama a $1000 deposit for a custom build order from Germany. The piece of paper given back to me stated:
“The purchaser signing below agrees that a deposit in the amount of $1000 is being applied to the agreed selling price of a 2012 Porsche Cayman R. This deposit will secure a located vehicle **OR** will secure an order for production to be delivered at a future date. Deposits are non-refundable unless the vehicle is not delivered as ordered. Vehicle will be free of damage and will be in the color and equipment listed on the original purchase order.”
When the dealer received the CR build allocation (2 weeks ago), they called me and I went in and told them I wanted to cancel (various reasons). We never used the configurator and a final price was never discussed at any time. My configuration was never submitted to the factory. Now, the dealer will not return my $1000 deposit. The dealer has always stated that they were going to get one and only one CR build allocation regardless of my interest. It was only after I wanted to cancel that the salesperson brought up a story that someone had come in and asked for a custom order CR and was told I had the only one. I do not believe this – it was never mentioned to me.
I was thinking about small claims court and would appreciate any feedback. This is my first time dealing with a Porsche dealer. Do I have a leg to stand on?
thanks
After the Cayman R unveiling in Nov, I was pretty excited and gave my dealer in Alabama a $1000 deposit for a custom build order from Germany. The piece of paper given back to me stated:
“The purchaser signing below agrees that a deposit in the amount of $1000 is being applied to the agreed selling price of a 2012 Porsche Cayman R. This deposit will secure a located vehicle **OR** will secure an order for production to be delivered at a future date. Deposits are non-refundable unless the vehicle is not delivered as ordered. Vehicle will be free of damage and will be in the color and equipment listed on the original purchase order.”
When the dealer received the CR build allocation (2 weeks ago), they called me and I went in and told them I wanted to cancel (various reasons). We never used the configurator and a final price was never discussed at any time. My configuration was never submitted to the factory. Now, the dealer will not return my $1000 deposit. The dealer has always stated that they were going to get one and only one CR build allocation regardless of my interest. It was only after I wanted to cancel that the salesperson brought up a story that someone had come in and asked for a custom order CR and was told I had the only one. I do not believe this – it was never mentioned to me.
I was thinking about small claims court and would appreciate any feedback. This is my first time dealing with a Porsche dealer. Do I have a leg to stand on?
thanks
12-17-2010, 12:23 AM
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I'll be interested to see what the experts say about this case. I see "Deposits are non-refundable ..." and "... $1000 is being applied to the agreed selling price ...." As you're probably thinking, there never was an agreed selling price, but you did make a deposit for a Cayman R, and deposits are non-refundable. I don't know squat about such legal matters, but it seems to me that the dealer would have the edge. He apparently thinks so too.
Regardless of what he can legally do, I don't think keeping the deposit is a very good strategy for keeping a customer for life. Thus, my guess is that many dealers would return your deposit because they'd be thinking they wouldn't have to wait long to sell their one Cayman R allocation. Deposits provide dealers with some assurance that they don't get stuck with someone's odd-ball custom order. In fact, if it's an odd-ball custom order, the dealer should probably ask for a $5000 deposit.
Regardless of what he can legally do, I don't think keeping the deposit is a very good strategy for keeping a customer for life. Thus, my guess is that many dealers would return your deposit because they'd be thinking they wouldn't have to wait long to sell their one Cayman R allocation. Deposits provide dealers with some assurance that they don't get stuck with someone's odd-ball custom order. In fact, if it's an odd-ball custom order, the dealer should probably ask for a $5000 deposit.
12-17-2010, 12:53 AM
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I agree with Jim on this one.
12-17-2010, 01:22 AM
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If you put the deposit on a credit card its VERY easy to get it all returned on a chargeback.
If you gave them check or cash, then its a little more difficult, but the key here is they failed to establish an agreed upon price, therefore the contract is missing a critical element and cannot be enforced.
How far up the ladder have you gone at the dealership? Get beyond the sales department and speak with the General Manager or owner of the dealership. Take a scan of the front page of the sales order and lets see what it looks like if you can. Also go to www.expertlaw.com and post it on the forum there. The language of the contract will determine if you can walk away from it and get your earnest money refunded.
If you gave them check or cash, then its a little more difficult, but the key here is they failed to establish an agreed upon price, therefore the contract is missing a critical element and cannot be enforced.
How far up the ladder have you gone at the dealership? Get beyond the sales department and speak with the General Manager or owner of the dealership. Take a scan of the front page of the sales order and lets see what it looks like if you can. Also go to www.expertlaw.com and post it on the forum there. The language of the contract will determine if you can walk away from it and get your earnest money refunded.
12-17-2010, 05:05 PM
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Thanks for all the replies. The ONLY paper documentation i have is a single peice of photocopied paper. It has a photocopy of my check on the top and the above language in my original post at the bottom. It has no other language. I signed it and the salesperson signed it. There is no other documentation. We never got to the point of sitting down in front of the configurator and submitting an order to the factory. We never discussed the final price. I have no other written documentation.
Some more interesting info. At the very start (before i gave them $), i mentioned in passing that i would probably not add the AC back in. They said nothing. At some later point in time, after giving them deposit but before i mentioned cancelling, they stated that a car with no AC would require an additional $10,000 deposit BEFORE order is placed. I did not really say anything at that time.
Also, I did ask them several times when could we negotiate price and they of course stated that that was not possible until their build allocation had come in. Then we could sit in front of computer, configure the car, haggle back and forth, agree on a final price and then submit the order to the factory. So there never was an agreed to price.
I concede that i may not have a case - i signed a piece of paper stating nonrefundable so i am in a bit of trouble - legally speaking. My only comment is this. They said they were going to get a CR allocation regardless of me walking in the door. Lets assume no one else asked for it. What hardship have i placed on the dealer? Me taking the CR order did not change their business one bit. However, if they did indeed get another customer in and they told them a CR was not available and if that customer is now no longer interested, then yes, I concede that i have caused them hardship and should forfeit my deposit. But how can i tell if they are being honest? I just don't beleive them. Do i have a right to ask for proof that someone came in and was turned away? Otherwise they are just taking my $ without any reason.
I will try talk to the general manager or owner tonight and let you guys know. I would prefer not to go to small claims court. I probably would not win.
thanks again for your help
Some more interesting info. At the very start (before i gave them $), i mentioned in passing that i would probably not add the AC back in. They said nothing. At some later point in time, after giving them deposit but before i mentioned cancelling, they stated that a car with no AC would require an additional $10,000 deposit BEFORE order is placed. I did not really say anything at that time.
Also, I did ask them several times when could we negotiate price and they of course stated that that was not possible until their build allocation had come in. Then we could sit in front of computer, configure the car, haggle back and forth, agree on a final price and then submit the order to the factory. So there never was an agreed to price.
I concede that i may not have a case - i signed a piece of paper stating nonrefundable so i am in a bit of trouble - legally speaking. My only comment is this. They said they were going to get a CR allocation regardless of me walking in the door. Lets assume no one else asked for it. What hardship have i placed on the dealer? Me taking the CR order did not change their business one bit. However, if they did indeed get another customer in and they told them a CR was not available and if that customer is now no longer interested, then yes, I concede that i have caused them hardship and should forfeit my deposit. But how can i tell if they are being honest? I just don't beleive them. Do i have a right to ask for proof that someone came in and was turned away? Otherwise they are just taking my $ without any reason.
I will try talk to the general manager or owner tonight and let you guys know. I would prefer not to go to small claims court. I probably would not win.
thanks again for your help
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12-17-2010, 10:59 PM
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“The purchaser signing below agrees that a deposit in the amount of $1000 is being applied to the agreed selling price of a 2012 Porsche Cayman R. This deposit will secure a located vehicle **OR** will secure an order for production to be delivered at a future date. Deposits are non-refundable unless the vehicle is not delivered as ordered. Vehicle will be free of damage and will be in the color and equipment listed on the original purchase order.”
1) Did you agree on a selling price?
You did not. Therefore, there is no executable contract. The piece of paper you and whomever else signed is incomplete. FURTHER, you can argue that if you eventually took delivery of the car and there is ONE FLAW, regardless of how minor, you can claim them to be in breach of contract for not providing a car "free of damage". Shame on them for not clearly defining what that means. I'm sure the dealership will want to avoid this hassle.
If you never agree on a price, the deposit is refundable... But again, I'm not a lawyer... They're just all around me...
If you are just talking to the salesperson, you are talking to the wrong guy. Talk to the general manager. I.e. - talk to the boss. Of course, a salesperson is going to say "non-refundable". It's silly to think otherwise... A bad rap on the Porsche dealer survey would do far more damage. It's easier for the dealer to give you your money back and save the hassle.
12-18-2010, 09:42 AM
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This kinda sheet happened all the time in the 80's when the Japanese cars were being sold before they were even loaded on the boat. Pricing was loosey-goosey but your non-refundable deposit was not.
You paid a deposit to reserve your right to buy the car, it's a contract. Especially with the provided language. There was a specific promise to do or provide something between two parties and money was exchanged. In this case, the promise was to perform the purchase. The other party (dealer) was not given the opportunity to perform.
Your only hope is a good-will gesture, which you can try to precipitate with a request for a refund, provided the dealer secures another buyer at a similar price. This should make them 'whole' (although not necessarily the salesmen- and this is where the trouble may be since he looses a commission), and in the interest of goodwill, be able to return the deposit.
BD
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night.
You paid a deposit to reserve your right to buy the car, it's a contract. Especially with the provided language. There was a specific promise to do or provide something between two parties and money was exchanged. In this case, the promise was to perform the purchase. The other party (dealer) was not given the opportunity to perform.
Your only hope is a good-will gesture, which you can try to precipitate with a request for a refund, provided the dealer secures another buyer at a similar price. This should make them 'whole' (although not necessarily the salesmen- and this is where the trouble may be since he looses a commission), and in the interest of goodwill, be able to return the deposit.
BD
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night.
12-18-2010, 10:25 AM
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Had a very similar experience a few years back. Placed a $1000 deposit on a FJ Cruiser (winter vehicle for me) when they first came out and were impossible to come by. A dealer a few hundred miles away had one before any dealers in my area. Asked him to hold it for me for one week ( with the deposit)until I could get there to pick it up. There was no paper contract or mention of the deposit being non refundable. After a few days, I changed my mind and called him to let him know...would not refund the deposit.
Now, before the peanut gallery chimes in, I know I was in the wrong and made an emotional decision I never should have made. I also realize this situation is a little different than the OP's, but here's how they are similar: 1) The dealer incurrred no cost ( quickly sold the vehicle to another buyer) and 2) Good will jestures go a long way in establishing a loyal customer base.
The end result was that the best he would do was split the difference and kept $500. Needless to say when I ordered my next truck 6 months later, I did not give this dealership a shot at my business and never will.
Now, before the peanut gallery chimes in, I know I was in the wrong and made an emotional decision I never should have made. I also realize this situation is a little different than the OP's, but here's how they are similar: 1) The dealer incurrred no cost ( quickly sold the vehicle to another buyer) and 2) Good will jestures go a long way in establishing a loyal customer base.
The end result was that the best he would do was split the difference and kept $500. Needless to say when I ordered my next truck 6 months later, I did not give this dealership a shot at my business and never will.
12-18-2010, 12:29 PM
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You paid a deposit to reserve your right to buy the car, it's a contract. Especially with the provided language. There was a specific promise to do or provide something between two parties and money was exchanged. In this case, the promise was to perform the purchase. The other party (dealer) was not given the opportunity to perform.
Also, when you say that the dealer was not given the opportunity to perform. you are correctn. But the BUYER also was not given the opportunity either - the opportunity to AGREE on a purchase price. The dealer is the one that's preventing this from happening. Without that agreement, there is no "contract". You do not need a car "allocation" in order to agree on a price. The buyer simply needs to not agree, and the contract is nullified.
12-18-2010, 02:23 PM
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Again, thanks for taking the time to offer your opinions. I am amazed at how different they can be 
I spoke to the general manager (GM) last night on the phone. He stated that he would keep my $1000 deposit. He was polite and so was i. He said that he would take my $1000 into consideration if i ever bought another car in the future i.e. he would try help me out on the price. I actually think that is a nice gesture even if it means nothing. He said he will keep my deposit because if he loses more money (e.g. $5000) on the car, he has no legal recourse with me – he cannot sue me to get the $5000 loss back.
So, after this phone conversation and after reading some of your posts, I think i am leaning towards small claims. The reasoning is as follows - feel free to critique
I have absolutely no problem letting them keep my $1000 deposit. I was the one who backed out of the deal. However, to be logical and fair, I will ONLY let them keep the deposit if they PROVE that they lost money on the car. What if they make a nice little profit on the car with the eventual buyer? What if they are able to sell the car to another dealer and make a profit even with shipping costs? Maybe a purchaser in CA or some other state will be willing to pay for shipping costs. Why are they keeping my $1000 if they make a profit?
So I would ask the judge to hold the $1000 in escrow until the sale completes with the future buyer. If they can prove they lost money on the sale then they should absolutely get my deposit – that is only fair. If they do NOT lose any money then i should get my deposit back – that is fair. Unfortunately, they could use creative accounting to show a loss – cost of car taking up lot space, cost of periodic car washes etc.
Is this thinking fair? I have tried to think in terms of "what if i was the dealer?". I would not be happy that the buyer is just walking away - now i am stuck with a CR that i may not have ordered. I would be worried that i will take a loss. But if the buyer said: "if you lose money on it, by all means keep my money" i would probably think that is fair. If I were the dealer I would probably think that if I get rid of the car with no loss, the original buyer should get their deposit back.
The fact that the GM simply wants to keep my money even if he makes a profit on the car is really what I am having trouble with. It does not seem reasonable.
I spoke to the general manager (GM) last night on the phone. He stated that he would keep my $1000 deposit. He was polite and so was i. He said that he would take my $1000 into consideration if i ever bought another car in the future i.e. he would try help me out on the price. I actually think that is a nice gesture even if it means nothing. He said he will keep my deposit because if he loses more money (e.g. $5000) on the car, he has no legal recourse with me – he cannot sue me to get the $5000 loss back.
So, after this phone conversation and after reading some of your posts, I think i am leaning towards small claims. The reasoning is as follows - feel free to critique
I have absolutely no problem letting them keep my $1000 deposit. I was the one who backed out of the deal. However, to be logical and fair, I will ONLY let them keep the deposit if they PROVE that they lost money on the car. What if they make a nice little profit on the car with the eventual buyer? What if they are able to sell the car to another dealer and make a profit even with shipping costs? Maybe a purchaser in CA or some other state will be willing to pay for shipping costs. Why are they keeping my $1000 if they make a profit?
So I would ask the judge to hold the $1000 in escrow until the sale completes with the future buyer. If they can prove they lost money on the sale then they should absolutely get my deposit – that is only fair. If they do NOT lose any money then i should get my deposit back – that is fair. Unfortunately, they could use creative accounting to show a loss – cost of car taking up lot space, cost of periodic car washes etc.
Is this thinking fair? I have tried to think in terms of "what if i was the dealer?". I would not be happy that the buyer is just walking away - now i am stuck with a CR that i may not have ordered. I would be worried that i will take a loss. But if the buyer said: "if you lose money on it, by all means keep my money" i would probably think that is fair. If I were the dealer I would probably think that if I get rid of the car with no loss, the original buyer should get their deposit back.
The fact that the GM simply wants to keep my money even if he makes a profit on the car is really what I am having trouble with. It does not seem reasonable.
12-18-2010, 03:18 PM
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I don't understand why the dealer thinks they will lose $5k on this deal because you backed out? Unless it is a weird configuration that was picked out by you and proven to be difficult to sale (A/C delete, PTS, etc.)..
12-18-2010, 08:47 PM
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I never configured it. As it stands today, they are free to configure it any way they choose (with AC etc) or try sell the build allocation to another dealer/buyer.
12-18-2010, 09:11 PM
#15
I really don't expect this coming from a high end dealership. Out of sheer goodwill, they should refund the money. It's not as though they turned away a $1+k over MSRP offer while you had the car on "hold". If they had actually ordered a car to your spec (eg. AC and radio delete) and they ended up being stuck with a car they cannot sell, that would be different.
If I put myself in the dealer's shoes (esp. the GM), I'd be thinking how much goodwill I'd build with this potential customer and all his Facebook, Rennlist, Planet9 friends/audience etc.
Anyway, best of luck with small claims court. PM me the dealership and I'll know to stay away.
If I put myself in the dealer's shoes (esp. the GM), I'd be thinking how much goodwill I'd build with this potential customer and all his Facebook, Rennlist, Planet9 friends/audience etc.
Anyway, best of luck with small claims court. PM me the dealership and I'll know to stay away.