crispy

I'm shopping a 2007 2.7 with 25k miles that has been wonderfully cared for. The PPI showed no other problems other than a "seeping" rear main. It is under warranty until May 2011. I'm a mechanic and while not happy about this find, I'm not too freaked out either. Will a RMS leak ("seep") on a Porsche take out the clutch plate? Should I get it fixed immediately! Should I not buy this car? Just looking for input. The plan is to fly to the car next week and drive it home.... Thanks, C.

Macster

Did the PPI give you any indication of the severity? A drop or two or a puddle?

If a drop or two... that's one thing. A puddle is something else.

If the car's still covered under warranty and the warranty will fix the RMS leak then you can insist the leak be fixed before hand and at a qualified shop -- ideally at a Porsche dealer service department -- or buy the car -- and use the presence of the RMS leak to drive the price down some -- and then arrange to have the car fixed once you get it home.

I can't recall any RMS leak fouling the clutch. Generally, in fact make this always (I'm sure someone will post the exception) the leak is just a seep and the oil seeps out and runs down the block and eventually finds its way to the floor.

My 02's RMS was leaking and I drove it IIRC around 8000 miles on a nice long road trip then after a the trips was over and after having had no problems with the car whatsoever I brought the car in to the dealer and had the leak fixed under warranty.

Before I left on the trip, I checked with the service manager and he told me to go ahead and drive the car -- had a vacation scheduled and he couldn't get the parts in before I was take the car out on vacation -- that there'd be no risk to the clutch or worse to the engine suddenly loosing all its oil while on the road.

Now it has been 8 years since my 02 had its RMS/IMS endplate replaced.

Back then the standard procedure called for replacing the RMS with a new/improved RMS *and* IMS end plate with a new/improved IMS end plate that had a 3-ribbed seal vs. the single o-ring seal of the original one. Also, 3 new micro-encapsulated bolts were used to seal the threads. The IMS end plate bolt holes thread into the crankcase and oil can seap past the threads and out from under the bolt heads and mimic a RMS leak.

Additionally to catch a "bad" engine -- one in which the RMS leak was due to an out of position crankshaft -- the position of the crank end relative to the RMS bore was checked. The word at the time was if it was found to be out of tolerance -- dealerships received go/no go gage to test this but when mine was done the mechanic has to use measuring tools to check the position -- a new engine was required cause not only would the new RMS not remain oil tight long eventually the engine would suffer more serious problems arising from the crankshaft being out of position. Complete engine failure was the end result was my info from that time.

Now I'm not sure if this is still a concern, that is if the IMS end plate and bolts require replacing at the same time as the RMS or if Porsche has solved the IMS end plate and bolt source of leaks in that area and if a leak is present is can only be the RMS. They both might require replacing cause the proximity of the RMS and IMS end plate make it almost impossible to know which of the two is leaking.

Also, I do not know if the crankshaft position check is still necessary.

Sincerely,

Macster.

crispy

Thanks for taking the time to give me such a complete answer. If I get this car, I will be starting a new relationship with the dealer in my area. I hope they look at it as gaining a new customer and do the right thing. It can only help to be armed with as much knowledge as possible going in. Thanks again, C.

Macster

I'm sure the dealer will do the right thing.

Still you need to read the warranty booklet and make sure you know what's covered and what is not covered and what your responsibilities are.

Then you have to pay pretty close attention to your initial contact with the dealer to make sure it does do the right thing and if it doesn't call it out on this. This helps to set the tone of the relationship going forward.

I like to remind the dealers with which I have service relationships with that the dealer as a car seller exists for just a few hours when I'm buying the car. The service relationship is an ongoing relationship that very much influences where I will buy me next Porsche from. Or even if I buy another Porsche. I have dropped other car makes from my list of acceptable cars due to lousy dealer servicing and I'll drop Porsche just as quick if I can't depend upon getting good service. So far the service I've received -- with just one exception (and from a dealer I will not longer honor with my service or car purchase business) -- having my cars serviced has been very good.

Which is one reason why I'm on my 3rd Porsche having never before owned more than 2 offerings from the same car maker before.

Anyhow, be sure the car's services are up to date and if not get estimates for the necessary or due services and adjust your offer accordingly.

Remember there is not only a possible pending/due engine oil/filter, but brake fluid scheduled to be flushed/bled every 2 years. Tranmission/diff fluids probably not due to be changed but I'd try to get some "help" on the price to at least cover some of the cost of these and have them done early. There's engine air filter, cabin air filter, and coolant too. Porsche advertises life time coolant but a drain/refill with fresh anti-freeze mixed with the distilled water every 4 or 5 years couldn't hurt. Fuel filter might be a serviceable item too.

In short while some fluid/filter services are not due they're closer to being due than if you bought a new car and there's no way you should bear the total cost of these. You need to adjust your offer to account for the fact these services are going to be due sooner rather than later.

And with a used car I like to bring all the services up to date so the car starts out "like new" in terms of fluids.

Also, I expect the tires are getting on in years and either are due to be replaced due to wear or even time. (6 years is the time limit on tires nowadays.)

With new tires I'm sure the alignment needs to be checked and probably brought into spec.

The battery will be enteriing the last half of its life so you need to budget/allow for this at some point.

The above is not meant to discourage you only to highlight that a used car comes with some added after the purchase costs looming and and you have to adjust your price/offer to account for these costs.

Sincerely,

Macster.

renvagn

Macster,
When do you think 987 trans/diff fluid shoud be replace? I am learning about the car, but thought one of the dealers I spoke with said the trans is a sealed unit with no scheduled maintenance until igh mileage. This goes against my habits.

By the way thanks for the oil change info. Got it done last Friday. Probably have 8 and 3/4 quarts in plus 3 oz of ZDDP. Oil light shows low but I am afraid to put any more in. The book with filter says 8.2 qrts, but others say just under 9 qrts.

Macster

When do I think the 987 trans/diff fluid should be replaced?

Well, I was going to have the fluids in my 08 Cayman S replaced after I returned from a 4000 mile mile road trip and this would have put the car's mileage at around 7500 miles. However an accident took away my Cayman S and I never got a chance to have its tranny/diff fluid changed.

OTOH, I drove my 02 Boxster IIRC 90K miles before I changed its 5-speed tranny/diff fluid. And this tranny and diff is now past 231K miles and still working just fine. (Though I have had the fluid changed several times since that 1st change at 90K miles.) In hindsight I wish I had it changed earlier but I think it is obvious that delaying the change has had no negative effect on the car's transmisison/diff life.

(In between the Boxster and the Cayman I had an 06 GTO and I had its 6-speed manual transmission and differential fluid changed at around 18K miles. I traded this car in when I bought the Cayman S so I don't know how the tranny/diff fared but I can tell you that at the time of the trade in the car had 40K miles and the tranny/diff were still in fine fettle.)

My 03 Turbo will get a tranny/diff fluid change shortly. The car has just over 32K miles on it. (I bought it used June of last year with 9500 miles on the car.)

Shortly after I bought the car I asked these be changed along with the front diff fluid when the car was in for some other work and the dealer's service department only changed the front diff's fluid. I have no idea why the other fluids weren't changed and this along with some other actions on this dealer's service department part is why I no longer use this dealer for any servicing.

Why didn't I have the tranny/diff fluid changed at another dealer? I just keep putting it off. Maybe I'll have the tranny/diff fluids changed this week cause I'm tentatively scheduled to be taking the car out on a week long road trip in a few weeks. Might be a good idea to have the fluids changed *before* I head out.

So to answer your question is it depends upon what you're prepared to live with. As you can read from above, I'm all over the map when it comes to tranny/diff fluid changes.

But don't do as I do, do as I say and I say my thinking is with a used car that doing this fluid change now essentlally starts the car out with all fresh vital fluids. Once they are changed you can pretty much forget about changing them again for a long time.

Sincerely,

Macster.

crispy

It's not that I must have this car but it is nice and I get the impression that many cars might have a seeping rms. Is that true? Also, I have spoken to my area dealer and they will fix the car no problem under warranty. Can I be assured that if I take it in right away and they get it apart, that they will be able to determine if there is a critical problem now or that there will be in the future. To put it another way, will I be able to get a solid diagnosis? Thanks, C.

Macster

Many cars have a seeping RMS? I can't say. It is a common problem but the percentage of cars affected is unknown. Some believe (me included) based in info from various sources -- including Porsche I believe -- that Porsche had fixed the RMS problem and later cars would not develop a RMS leak.

However, any seal can leak for a variety of reasons. One possible reason, rare though, is due to a mechanical problem and one such problem -- rarer still -- is a crankshaft out of position (at least regarding the M96/M97 Porsche engines and their RMS leaks).

If you take the car in right away and get the RMS replaced, and ask about the IMS end plate/bolts upgrade (if it even applies now, cause I would have thought later cars, especially 987s would have this present from the factory) and if it necessary have this applied as well.

Ask also about the crankshaft position test/check. If it applies be sure this is done and the fact it was done is stated on the copy of the work invoice you get and store in a safe place.

Be sure you specify the rear of the engine and the bellhousing inside and out be cleaned of any oil residue. You want the engine and transmission spotless. In fact, I'd try to arange to show up and snap some pics just to be sure this was done.

Why? Cause you're going to keep a sharp eye on the car for any and I mean any signs of an oil leak. If you spot any sign you have to take the car in right now.

If the dealer fixes the leak under warranty the warranty on the parts/labor for the fix only runs until the end of the warranty period. Technically speaking this means if you have this fixed today and the warranty expires tomorrow and the day after that the leak returns the repair is not covered. (Technically speaking now I would not be surprised the dealer would offer some goodwill but it doesn't have to is my understanding.)

So you don't want to dawdle if you spot a leak. But you don't want to be raising a false alarm due to residual oil that mimics a leak.

All the dealer can do is at this time verify the seal is the proper part and it is installed correctly. Ditto the IMS end plate and bolts if this is determined it needs to be applied.

Then if the crankshaft position is checked and found to be within spec the dealer has done all it can do.

It can't make promises that nothing will happen.

But my take is that if the crankshaft position is found to be ok -- and I'm not even sure this is a concern for the 987 engines (ask your dealer and its service department/manager) -- that it generally remains ok. The first RMS leak is almost always -- I'd say always but I'm sure there's an exception somewhere -- when if there is any crankshaft position problem it is found and dealt with.

What came about is back early on it was found some cars coming back with a 2nd or even a 3rd RMS leak.

Someone finally got the idea -- maybe Porsche released this as an advisory to its dealers when it examined returned engines -- to check the crankshaft position and found it to be out of spec.

After a while this became a rather common check, my info is it was standard operating procedure, and once the position possibility was known that Porsche provided each dealer a go/no go gage to use to determine if the crankshaft position was within spec.

If the car checks out ok otherwise and you can strike a deal that suits you, then buy the car and have the RMS and IMS/bolts (if necessary) and even the crankshaft position verified (if even applicable with the 987 engine) and after getting the car back then drive the heck out of the car, enjoy it to the fullest extent you can.

It is a very fine automobile and one that you'll enjoy driving for thousands of I'm sure trouble-free miles.

I've covered 231K miles in my Boxster and because of this and my experience with the car bought a new 08 Cayman S and then when I lost that car (to an accident) managed to find/buy a very nice 03 Turbo.

Sincerely,

Macster.

crispy

Thank you so much Macster. You've given me the most solid advice and I agree with your logic. I pulled the trigger today and bought the car. It has been really well cared for and is in nearly perfect condition except for the oil seep. It is optioned well and fairly priced. My rational is that I could buy into this problem with any car. I know up front what I have, I have warranty time on my side and have a dealer that I think will do a good job for me (although that may be a topic for another thread). I feel well armed and once this is cleared up, I will have a beautiful car that I really wanted. Thanks again, C.

Macster

Sorely tempted to replace my aging Boxster with a used 2.7l Cayman. While the Cayman S was a very nice car (the short time I had it) the 2.7l Cayman I think is like the 2.7l Boxster and that is it is one of the finest handling best balanced cars available. And by balance I mean peformance, luxury, along with handling, brakes, cost, reliability, etc.

The car is a a complete package and lacks for nothing.

Be sure to post pics of your car when you can.

Sincerely,

Macster.