peabody

I think I've narrowed my search down to two choices...

1. A 2006 Boxster (black) with 49,000 miles

or

2. A 2005 Boxster (also black) with 21,000 miles

With the exception of the interior color, the cars have approximately the same features (neither is an S)....and are the same price ($22,900). Both are coming from dealers...if that makes a difference.

With the research I've done, there doesn't seem to be a huge difference in features between the two model years. So, is it better to have a newer car that has higher mileage, or a car that is one year older with half the miles?

Opinions are welcomed....

drcollie

2005's were susceptible to Intermediate Shaft Failures, and some of the 2006's. That's an engine replacement fix in the five-digit range, so do you homework on the VIN on the 06, and see if that's out of that problem zone. Check the 05 to see if its had any work. See if there is any powerplant warranty on either.

00r101

The age is close and neither mileage is too high or too low so you need to decide based on other factors. Who is selling them? If different sources I would go with the one I trusted more. What do the maintenance records look like? Have you gotten an independent PPI done on both cars? CARFAX?

ltc

Whichever has the best (longest time remaining) Porsche warranty

gerry100

Drcollie-

I'm looking at an 06 S with 40k plus miles.

August 06 service date.

How do I check the VIN for IMS problem susceptibility?

Thanks

Macster

VIN will tell you is when the car was built, among other things of course, but AFAIK there is no public info regarding any relationship between VIN and IMS.

I have not followed this too closely, but there have been reports that some of the later MYs received some change/improvement in this area that was supposed to address this weakness but until these later MY cars collect some miles we'll not know if this improvement really was an improvement. If you believe this, or find corraborating info that these reports are accurate, then searching out one of the last 986 Boxsters built could see you with a car that has an engine with the best most reliable IMS bearing and possibility other upgrades addressing engine longevity issues there is.

Regardless, all M96 engines I believe have the same IMS weakness and are at risk of this failing. The risk of IMS is small, but not zero, even for the last examples built. (The only Boxsters that do not have risk of IMS failure are those with the DFI engine which of course has no IMS and bearing to fail.)

If you find a 986 car meets your requirements and acceptance tests and you can work out a deal then buy the car.

If you're looking for a zero risk Porsche Boxster purchase, there isn't any, unless you buy new or a used one with some warranty remaining (factory or CPO warranty -- I would *not* consider any other warranty sufficient protection) and even then you do not drive the car and continue to own it outside of this warranty coverage.

If you opt to buy a car outside of warranty, you should consider the non-zero risk the engine can suffer IMS failure (the most common of several causes of total engine failure) at any time, regardless of how you drive the car, service it, within reason of course, at some point during your ownership of the car.

If you own/drive the car a year or two and rack just a few thousand miles, the risk is quite small. If you drive more miles per year or own the the car longer the risk increases.

I've been told by several Porsche techs that is it not a matter of if the IMS will fail, but only a matter of when.

Now countering that in some ways there are more than a few Boxsters out there with some big miles on them. I own one. An 02 with 227K miles. Original engine. Original clutch. Been a very good car. Very reliable. I drive the car alot, of course. Almost every day. I change the oil/filter every 5K miles. I have used Mobil 1 15w-50, Mobil 1 0w-40, and Mobil 1 10w-40 at various times in the car's time with me.

The car sees grocery runs, work commute (30 miles one way) and 4000+ mile week long road trips at various times of the year, in all weather from blazing hot summer heat to very cold winter temperatures. Some times of the year a mix all both depending upon which route I take back east or from the east back west.

No track time on my car but I know of more than one owner who's car has big miles and the car receives some track time.

Sincerely,

Macster.

gerry100

Macster has expressed the issues very well.

The car in question for me is a 987 with a July 05 build date ( July 06 service date), but I belive this is still an M96 design with an IMS.

I feel as Macster does, the design is basically weak . I 'm also sure that Porsche engineering has analyzed this and tried to make incremental changes over the years.

As my candidate will be a car with a 7/05 build date and about 6k of factory mileage warranty I'v got issues -

- How much did the IMS improve by that time?

- The conventional wisdom is "20-25%" is it now 10%. Is this all distorted by Internet mythology

- Based on the above - How much do I discount the price I'm willing to pay to cover self insuring against engine failure.

- One can talk about selling after a few years but how much will these cars be worth with 60k plus and a bad reputation? If the 06 and later engines prove to have a solid fix they will be worth a lot more.

- Before the internet, Car Makers could get away with hiidng something like this. Today we will know.

Of course. Macsters IMS failing at 227K would be considered a triumph not a failure.

If Porsche would just step up and issue some type of special prorated warranty on these motors it would solve our problems and a major one for them.

Otherwise, the value of these cars and the Porsche reputation will be controlled in significant measure by ignorance creating fear.

Macster

My opinion on the IMS is based on several things: The most compelling thing is that failures in this area happen all too often. (The other is that Porsche's newer engine design has no IMS.)

One criteria for judging how often is too often is if one can remember the last reported IMS failure.

Now this is partially affected by the better communication Porsche car owners have with each other. If we didn't have the internet the only source of how often serious engine troubles appeared would come from the factory, which would probably not divulge this info unless compelled to by the frequency or perhaps some sort of legal action requiring disclosure; dealerships (which could understandably want to keep this info to themselves); and later on indy shops; and lastly of course any gatherings of Porsche car fans during which I'm sure all the latest news would get exchanged.

But we have the internet and sites like this.

Now I will point out that I visit various Porsche dealerships and have learned of cars being in for engine failures -- without being a snoop or a busybody -- and even if I ignored the posts of these events just what I've learned from dealerships is that in my opinion these events are too frequent.

I still can't assign any risk other than to say it exists.

I didn't feel it that much of a risk to keep me from buying a new 08 Cayman S. However, I was not planning on letting the new car's warranty expire from time. Also, I was sort of thinking of driving the car a year or so then trading it in on a new Cayman S with DFI and maybe even PDK if the experiences of other owners in the meantime proved to be good.

Were I a buyer of a used car with the IMS I would tend to assign a bigger risk to this possibility because: 1) I did not have the car from new and was not able to do my usual new car oil/filter changes; 2) There is no guarantee that even this preventative oil/filter servicing will prevent serious engine troubles from occuring after the warranty has expired, that the risk is real and not affected by any reasonable servicing.

You can try to discount the car whatever you think you want to but you are up against other buyers who may not be aware of the risk, or who may assign it a lower possibility. And of course you are up against a seller who may not care for your assessment of the risk involved and refuse to lower his price. I mean as much as it is in your favor to play up the risk it is to the seller's benefit to play down the risk.

And you can't play the risk up too much cause if you overdo it the thinking will be if you feel the car's such a risk why are you even seeking to buy one? And your tactic will be seen as insincere and your attempt to buy as a crude attempt to lowball the car.

Someone made a good comment on this subject in another thread. I can't remember the poster's name and his exact words, but essentially he said the price of all this engine risk is already baked into the value of these cars.

There is I think some truth to that. What you are really up against is determining what the market price is and trying to score a good car that you like at this price. This price will already have some of the risk factored in.

You can alway start out a bit lower than market and see what happens. Price is not fact only an opinion. And you can always up your offer if the buyer remains firm against your attempts to get him to lower his price by raising the risk issue as justification for offering less than market.

Or you can give the time to see if he can sell the car. If he doesn't he might be more receptive to your offer, even if it is lower than he wanted.

Based on my time with my Boxster I think these are fine cars. However, had my car had an engine failure even under warranty I might not feel that way.

Were my car to have suffered more than one engine failure -- as a car that I encountered the other day had -- then I would probably be posting that I dumped my Porsche for another brand of car and you should too.

I mean in some context it is a gruesome subject to be discussing when considering a used car. The normal used car worries are condition, price and so on. Whether the engine will blow up is not, should not be a worry when seeking out a used car with otherwise very high credentials and with some reasonable care and servicing and usage to show for its time with its current owner.

Sincerely,

Macster.

gerry100

The risk is real.

The risk is reflected in the price only to the extent that the "other buyers" are aware of it.

Am I smarter than the other buyers or more paranoid?

I'll probably just come up with my discount and walk/wait if I don't get it.

I agree - the only thing we can say with confidence is that the IMS risk is real and large enough to affect the decision.

Makes me think - Honda S2000

gerry100

Also- Thanks for your insightful and helpful replies Macster.

Macster

I have no direct experience with the Honda S2000 and have not tried to even keep up with the news and troubles (if any) these cars can exhibit.

A co-worker -- back in the year 2000 -- was interested in a "new" car and he looked at the Honda S2000 and BMW Z3. He did not as I recall look at the Porsche Boxster.

This co-worker commented on how light the hardware was on the Honda compared to the BMW. The fasteners and such all looked to him so dinky and undersized compared the heavier fasteners of the Z3.

He didn't buy the Honda or the Z3, but instead found a nice used M3.

It may not have been a fair comparison but I remember his comments about the Honda vs. the BMW.

But do your research on the Honda. It may have a very reliable engine and be a very reliable car. I see quite a few around.

Sincerely,

Macster.

RonCT

I picked up a CPO 2005 Boxster S one year ago that came with about 23k miles on it if I remember correctly. It now has 30,000 (exactly as I rolled it into the garage for hibernation). So 7k of use in a year, probably 10 DE days by my kids, and plenty of just plain "happy motoring". The car is rock solid with no issues. I was careful on the purchase, waiting for a 1-owner CPO and inspected the DME readout to insure there were no over-revs. Warranty is good for another 1.5 years or so and I figure by then the car will have another 10k on it and hopefully anything dramatic will have surfaced by then.

Basically, I looked for a couple of months waiting for the right combination of miles, condition, options. I wasn't concerned about 05 vs 06 and saved several thousand going with the 05.

gerry100

My plan would be to keep the car after the CPO expires when the IMS becomes a concern.

More facts about the improvements made by the 987 intro would be helpful in quantifiying my risk and .

When I can do that, I can decide what the value of a non CPO 987 with 45K miles.

gerry100

More anecdotal IMS opinions from my indy Porsche mechanic -

Prior to '05 , all M96 IMS fail eventually.

In '05 , a beefier bearing and redesign of related parts has reduced significantly or possibly eliminated the IMS issue. RMS leak issues are still there but seem to be reduced.

He's kept my '86 Carrera going for 8 years and will most certainly lose revenue if I move up. so he's got no reason to pimp the 05s

drcollie

Agreed. I spoke with many Porsche techs in the back of two dealerships before I bought my 08 Boxster S ( was one of the very last made before the switch to the DFI engines in 09). The consensus was the 2005's were most at risk for the IMS failure and in mid-2006 changes were made to reduce the chance of that (I was also looking at a used 2006 car, and wanted to avoid having to install a new engine in any car!).

I personally would shy away from a 2005, and buy a later production 06 or newer based on my conversations with the dealership mechanics.