Percent of MSRP for 2009 987S
10-26-2009, 12:49 AM
#32
Race Director
A "barely" used car is a used car if it has been registered. Regardless of the miles it is a used csr.
I do not know what deals there are on leftover 2008s. At one time dealers were knocking prices down big time. In April I got $12K off sticker for a new Cayman S that stickered for $62K and there were even better deals to be had on more heavily optioned Cayman Ss.
But it could be that there are so few left overs well left that dealers may not want to bargain and can hold out for a higher price and pocket the likely big incentive money Porsche gave out on these cars. I mean the sale of a lone 2008 is not going to make or break a dealer's sales quota so the dealer might treat the car as a special and make a contest out of it and the salesman that can sell it for a price above a certain level gets a good bonus.
A used car, one that has been registered is a bit different. Generally a car depreciates 10% off the dealer's cost of the car when you the new owner drive the car off the lot. Then every year after when the new models arrive the car depreciates another 10%. But given dealers were discounting these cars new earlier this year I'd believe the car has depreciated even more.
Shop around. Look around. I haven't since May/June timeframe. Use www.autotrader.com and look for new/used 2008s offered by dealers and see what turns up and what prices are being asked.
Post info here and someone will chip in, offer an opinion.
Sincerely,
Macster.
10-26-2009, 08:35 PM
#33
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Macster,
thank you for the informative reply. I think your on to something about dealers not trying to move 08s as aggressively as in the past. I have checked all the usual sites(porsche.com/autotrader/cars.com) and found dealers pretty firm on their reduced asking price. But I'm not convinced that the deals are much better now compared to june/july.
Re barely used vs. new. some dealers have now started listing never titled cars in their used inventory on the porsche website so I was a little confused. Thanks for clarifying that.
At this point I'm looking for a CPOed 06 or 07. However, their is a 5-12k gap between dealer asking price on these cars and what excellence, etc lists as the value.
I have found a 06 CPO black/black with 3,500 miles
options: PASM,Carbon pack,Preferred Pack Plus,Bose sound,Bi-Xenon lights,Power seat pack, 6Disc CD,Auto Climate Control,Sport Wheel,Heated front seats,Self dimming mirrors, 19 Carrera Wheels
Dealer wants 45k, that seems about 7-8k to high to me but maybe my expectations are off...
thank you for your help
thank you for the informative reply. I think your on to something about dealers not trying to move 08s as aggressively as in the past. I have checked all the usual sites(porsche.com/autotrader/cars.com) and found dealers pretty firm on their reduced asking price. But I'm not convinced that the deals are much better now compared to june/july.
Re barely used vs. new. some dealers have now started listing never titled cars in their used inventory on the porsche website so I was a little confused. Thanks for clarifying that.
At this point I'm looking for a CPOed 06 or 07. However, their is a 5-12k gap between dealer asking price on these cars and what excellence, etc lists as the value.
I have found a 06 CPO black/black with 3,500 miles
options: PASM,Carbon pack,Preferred Pack Plus,Bose sound,Bi-Xenon lights,Power seat pack, 6Disc CD,Auto Climate Control,Sport Wheel,Heated front seats,Self dimming mirrors, 19 Carrera Wheels
Dealer wants 45k, that seems about 7-8k to high to me but maybe my expectations are off...
thank you for your help
10-27-2009, 08:03 PM
#34
Race Director
Macster,
thank you for the informative reply. I think your on to something about dealers not trying to move 08s as aggressively as in the past. I have checked all the usual sites(porsche.com/autotrader/cars.com) and found dealers pretty firm on their reduced asking price. But I'm not convinced that the deals are much better now compared to june/july.
Re barely used vs. new. some dealers have now started listing never titled cars in their used inventory on the porsche website so I was a little confused. Thanks for clarifying that.
At this point I'm looking for a CPOed 06 or 07. However, their is a 5-12k gap between dealer asking price on these cars and what excellence, etc lists as the value.
I have found a 06 CPO black/black with 3,500 miles
options: PASM,Carbon pack,Preferred Pack Plus,Bose sound,Bi-Xenon lights,Power seat pack, 6Disc CD,Auto Climate Control,Sport Wheel,Heated front seats,Self dimming mirrors, 19 Carrera Wheels
Dealer wants 45k, that seems about 7-8k to high to me but maybe my expectations are off...
thank you for your help
thank you for the informative reply. I think your on to something about dealers not trying to move 08s as aggressively as in the past. I have checked all the usual sites(porsche.com/autotrader/cars.com) and found dealers pretty firm on their reduced asking price. But I'm not convinced that the deals are much better now compared to june/july.
Re barely used vs. new. some dealers have now started listing never titled cars in their used inventory on the porsche website so I was a little confused. Thanks for clarifying that.
At this point I'm looking for a CPOed 06 or 07. However, their is a 5-12k gap between dealer asking price on these cars and what excellence, etc lists as the value.
I have found a 06 CPO black/black with 3,500 miles
options: PASM,Carbon pack,Preferred Pack Plus,Bose sound,Bi-Xenon lights,Power seat pack, 6Disc CD,Auto Climate Control,Sport Wheel,Heated front seats,Self dimming mirrors, 19 Carrera Wheels
Dealer wants 45k, that seems about 7-8k to high to me but maybe my expectations are off...
thank you for your help
Porsche may have dispensed all the incentives its going to. Dealers can't expect Porsche to keep this up forever. As a car sits it accumulated flooring costs or represents tied up capital if the dealer has paid for the car. After a while a dealer can be facing with selling the car at a loss or holding out in the hopes someone will come in and pay enough for the car to make the dealer whole.
Back in late 2001 and very early 2002 when I was shopping for a Boxster dealers had lots of very low mile used cars. Low miles like factory delivery low miles.
What was going on was in order to not appear to be offering discounts on new stock these cars were being advertised as used even though they were not as used.
More recently like in early 2008 "used" was out and "demo" was in. Lots of "demos". Again low low miles but heavily discounted.
There is always going to be a gap between what a dealer is asking for a car and what it is worth.
Figure dealer has only what he will allow for the same car as a trade in and start from there.
There are volumes written on how to buy a new or used car (and sell a used car) and I suggest you visit your favorite local bookstrore and search out one or two. How to Buy a New or Used Car, something like that and another is What Car Dealers Won't Tell You is another, IIRC. Author names escape me. Oh, have this second book right in front of me: Bob Elliston is its author.
If you want to est. depreciated value of that 06, attempt to learn its MSRP not including any additional dealer markup.
Multiply that by 0.87. This gives you (ballpark, very ball park, the "invoice" price of the car.
Now when this car sold new (perhaps in late 05) it lost 10% of its value calculated by taking 10% away from the "invoice" price.
Then every year after that when the new fall models arrived, the car depreciated another 10%.
Say car invoiced for $50K. When new car buyer drove it off lot in 05 its value went to $45K. In 06 it dropped to $40.5K. In 07 $36.45K. In 08 $32.8K. In 09 $29.52K. And now with the 2010's at the dealers, the car's depreciated value is: $26.5K.
Now various factors can slow or even stop this descent. Or speed it up. Market conditions, economy, new model introduction, and so on.
The huge discounts offered on the 08s can only have dragged earlier car values down.
Depreciation does tend to flatten out over time.
But the formula gives you some idea.
Or visit www.kbb.com and plug in the numbers and see what wholesale or trade in or private party or even retail price is for the car.
Also, do a search any distance for same year cars and see how many turn up and their price ranges.
Try to find any way you can to justify offering less for the car than its asking price.
If you want the car. If the car otherwise checks out.
Price not fact, only an opinion.
There is alway another car.
Sincerely,
Macster.
10-27-2009, 11:08 PM
#36
Dealers may be caught between rock and hard place regarding any leftover 08s.
Porsche may have dispensed all the incentives its going to. Dealers can't expect Porsche to keep this up forever. As a car sits it accumulated flooring costs or represents tied up capital if the dealer has paid for the car. After a while a dealer can be facing with selling the car at a loss or holding out in the hopes someone will come in and pay enough for the car to make the dealer whole.
Back in late 2001 and very early 2002 when I was shopping for a Boxster dealers had lots of very low mile used cars. Low miles like factory delivery low miles.
What was going on was in order to not appear to be offering discounts on new stock these cars were being advertised as used even though they were not as used.
More recently like in early 2008 "used" was out and "demo" was in. Lots of "demos". Again low low miles but heavily discounted.
There is always going to be a gap between what a dealer is asking for a car and what it is worth.
Figure dealer has only what he will allow for the same car as a trade in and start from there.
There are volumes written on how to buy a new or used car (and sell a used car) and I suggest you visit your favorite local bookstrore and search out one or two. How to Buy a New or Used Car, something like that and another is What Car Dealers Won't Tell You is another, IIRC. Author names escape me. Oh, have this second book right in front of me: Bob Elliston is its author.
If you want to est. depreciated value of that 06, attempt to learn its MSRP not including any additional dealer markup.
Multiply that by 0.87. This gives you (ballpark, very ball park, the "invoice" price of the car.
Now when this car sold new (perhaps in late 05) it lost 10% of its value calculated by taking 10% away from the "invoice" price.
Then every year after that when the new fall models arrived, the car depreciated another 10%.
Say car invoiced for $50K. When new car buyer drove it off lot in 05 its value went to $45K. In 06 it dropped to $40.5K. In 07 $36.45K. In 08 $32.8K. In 09 $29.52K. And now with the 2010's at the dealers, the car's depreciated value is: $26.5K.
Now various factors can slow or even stop this descent. Or speed it up. Market conditions, economy, new model introduction, and so on.
The huge discounts offered on the 08s can only have dragged earlier car values down.
Depreciation does tend to flatten out over time.
But the formula gives you some idea.
Or visit www.kbb.com and plug in the numbers and see what wholesale or trade in or private party or even retail price is for the car.
Also, do a search any distance for same year cars and see how many turn up and their price ranges.
Try to find any way you can to justify offering less for the car than its asking price.
If you want the car. If the car otherwise checks out.
Price not fact, only an opinion.
There is alway another car.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Porsche may have dispensed all the incentives its going to. Dealers can't expect Porsche to keep this up forever. As a car sits it accumulated flooring costs or represents tied up capital if the dealer has paid for the car. After a while a dealer can be facing with selling the car at a loss or holding out in the hopes someone will come in and pay enough for the car to make the dealer whole.
Back in late 2001 and very early 2002 when I was shopping for a Boxster dealers had lots of very low mile used cars. Low miles like factory delivery low miles.
What was going on was in order to not appear to be offering discounts on new stock these cars were being advertised as used even though they were not as used.
More recently like in early 2008 "used" was out and "demo" was in. Lots of "demos". Again low low miles but heavily discounted.
There is always going to be a gap between what a dealer is asking for a car and what it is worth.
Figure dealer has only what he will allow for the same car as a trade in and start from there.
There are volumes written on how to buy a new or used car (and sell a used car) and I suggest you visit your favorite local bookstrore and search out one or two. How to Buy a New or Used Car, something like that and another is What Car Dealers Won't Tell You is another, IIRC. Author names escape me. Oh, have this second book right in front of me: Bob Elliston is its author.
If you want to est. depreciated value of that 06, attempt to learn its MSRP not including any additional dealer markup.
Multiply that by 0.87. This gives you (ballpark, very ball park, the "invoice" price of the car.
Now when this car sold new (perhaps in late 05) it lost 10% of its value calculated by taking 10% away from the "invoice" price.
Then every year after that when the new fall models arrived, the car depreciated another 10%.
Say car invoiced for $50K. When new car buyer drove it off lot in 05 its value went to $45K. In 06 it dropped to $40.5K. In 07 $36.45K. In 08 $32.8K. In 09 $29.52K. And now with the 2010's at the dealers, the car's depreciated value is: $26.5K.
Now various factors can slow or even stop this descent. Or speed it up. Market conditions, economy, new model introduction, and so on.
The huge discounts offered on the 08s can only have dragged earlier car values down.
Depreciation does tend to flatten out over time.
But the formula gives you some idea.
Or visit www.kbb.com and plug in the numbers and see what wholesale or trade in or private party or even retail price is for the car.
Also, do a search any distance for same year cars and see how many turn up and their price ranges.
Try to find any way you can to justify offering less for the car than its asking price.
If you want the car. If the car otherwise checks out.
Price not fact, only an opinion.
There is alway another car.
Sincerely,
Macster.
That was a rather bazaar post.
A used car is one that has been titled already you can’t just magically call it a used car and knock the price down. In addition Porsche would not give the dealer any incentive money at all on a car which has been titled. There are laws on exactly what constitutes a “used” car. So back in 2001 and 2002 the same things applied.
Fast forward to 2008, a “demo” is just that, a car whose warranty has started and has been driven but which has never been titled. Porsche will from time to time assist dealers with incentives on demos. You cant just substitute one word for the other they have different legal meanings associated with them.
There is a gap? …. What a car is worth or anything for that matter is a simple fact of what price it changes hands at. Other then an actual selling price the term “worth” has no meaning without a qualifier, what you think a car is “worth” someone else might not pay 1/4er of that.
There was no “additional dealer markup” in 2006 and if there was it would have no relevance on anything. The MSRP of any vehicle is fairly easy to find even back in 2006.
Besides the acronym MSRP can not by definition include any other markup. For the record there is about 10 to 11% from MSRP to invoice on a Porsche and that’s public information. The .87 you suggest would imply there is 13% which is wrong.
On top of that if you depreciate a car 10% a year you’re going to have a lot of explaining to do to those guys who are driving around in cars whose price in the open market is a lot more or less than that. There is no straight line way to determine deprecation since market conditions vary.
There is no reason you have to justify offering less, just offer less because you want to and that’s where your own personal definition of “worth” on that car is.
10-28-2009, 12:13 AM
#37
6th Gear
Join Date: Nov 2006
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"There is a gap? …. What a car is worth or anything for that matter is a simple fact of what price it changes hands at. Other then an actual selling price the term “worth” has no meaning without a qualifier, what you think a car is “worth” someone else might not pay 1/4er of that."
Trader,
I think this is directed towards towards me. By gap I mean there is a larger than expected difference between what a seemingly non-biased authority such as Bruce Anderson is telling us what the market for these cars is and what dealers are asking. I understand that asking prices are a starting point but it makes it hard for me to know how much to offer or what number to accept when the "gap" is over 10k.
I would assume Bruce in his Nov 2009 market update on these cars was basing his estimates on the actual sales as well. According to him 06 CS should be 34k for an excellent example and 07 CS should be 41k for an excellent example.
Given this I think it's fair to be a little skeptical that almost every used Cayman S is as at least excellent and should retail above 42k. And I'm not talking about 70K+ MSRP cars either.
You're right in saying how much a car is worth is subjective. As worth is the simple fact of selling price it seems reasonable for a buyer to inductively base at least part of his offer based on what previous examples sold for.
Since only you guys, being the dealers, have a large enough data set to know what these cars are trading hands at the rest of have to use whatever imperfect information we have to figure out how much to offer/pay/value/ whatever term you like other then worth.
Thanks for the insight and help.
Can't wait to be driving a CS soon!
Trader,
I think this is directed towards towards me. By gap I mean there is a larger than expected difference between what a seemingly non-biased authority such as Bruce Anderson is telling us what the market for these cars is and what dealers are asking. I understand that asking prices are a starting point but it makes it hard for me to know how much to offer or what number to accept when the "gap" is over 10k.
I would assume Bruce in his Nov 2009 market update on these cars was basing his estimates on the actual sales as well. According to him 06 CS should be 34k for an excellent example and 07 CS should be 41k for an excellent example.
Given this I think it's fair to be a little skeptical that almost every used Cayman S is as at least excellent and should retail above 42k. And I'm not talking about 70K+ MSRP cars either.
You're right in saying how much a car is worth is subjective. As worth is the simple fact of selling price it seems reasonable for a buyer to inductively base at least part of his offer based on what previous examples sold for.
Since only you guys, being the dealers, have a large enough data set to know what these cars are trading hands at the rest of have to use whatever imperfect information we have to figure out how much to offer/pay/value/ whatever term you like other then worth.
Thanks for the insight and help.
Can't wait to be driving a CS soon!
10-28-2009, 11:42 AM
#38
Do a search here on rennlist and on Pelican to see what people think of Bruce's pricing comments. I dont know Bruce personally but I do know his reputation is outstanding for his knowledge of the cars in general. On the other hand I believe, as do many his pricing is off. I dont have a ton of data points for pricing on pre owned, but I do have access to the dealer auctions pricing info. I think as a consumer you should expect to pay a premium to a dealer vs. a private sale. For some people that adds value for others it does not. I can say this, I bought and sold nearly 2 dozen 911's before I got into the business and I never once bought one from a dealer. For my personal taste there was no value there but then again I was buying mostly sub 50k cars.
I agree with you in that there is mark up in a pre owned car but "fair value" to use an options trading phrase, is really only the price where the transaction takes place.
Hope you were not offended my my remarks that was not my intention. By the way we have a 2007 Cayman S 21k miles CPO and it was listed at about 43k and we've had it for several weeks. I am sure we would sell it cheap but I suspect the fact its white and tan is hurting it.
I agree with you in that there is mark up in a pre owned car but "fair value" to use an options trading phrase, is really only the price where the transaction takes place.
Hope you were not offended my my remarks that was not my intention. By the way we have a 2007 Cayman S 21k miles CPO and it was listed at about 43k and we've had it for several weeks. I am sure we would sell it cheap but I suspect the fact its white and tan is hurting it.
10-28-2009, 03:15 PM
#39
Race Director
That was a rather bazaar post.
A used car is one that has been titled already you can’t just magically call it a used car and knock the price down. In addition Porsche would not give the dealer any incentive money at all on a car which has been titled. There are laws on exactly what constitutes a “used” car. So back in 2001 and 2002 the same things applied.
Fast forward to 2008, a “demo” is just that, a car whose warranty has started and has been driven but which has never been titled. Porsche will from time to time assist dealers with incentives on demos. You cant just substitute one word for the other they have different legal meanings associated with them.
There is a gap? …. What a car is worth or anything for that matter is a simple fact of what price it changes hands at. Other then an actual selling price the term “worth” has no meaning without a qualifier, what you think a car is “worth” someone else might not pay 1/4er of that.
There was no “additional dealer markup” in 2006 and if there was it would have no relevance on anything. The MSRP of any vehicle is fairly easy to find even back in 2006.
Besides the acronym MSRP can not by definition include any other markup. For the record there is about 10 to 11% from MSRP to invoice on a Porsche and that’s public information. The .87 you suggest would imply there is 13% which is wrong.
On top of that if you depreciate a car 10% a year you’re going to have a lot of explaining to do to those guys who are driving around in cars whose price in the open market is a lot more or less than that. There is no straight line way to determine deprecation since market conditions vary.
There is no reason you have to justify offering less, just offer less because you want to and that’s where your own personal definition of “worth” on that car is.
A used car is one that has been titled already you can’t just magically call it a used car and knock the price down. In addition Porsche would not give the dealer any incentive money at all on a car which has been titled. There are laws on exactly what constitutes a “used” car. So back in 2001 and 2002 the same things applied.
Fast forward to 2008, a “demo” is just that, a car whose warranty has started and has been driven but which has never been titled. Porsche will from time to time assist dealers with incentives on demos. You cant just substitute one word for the other they have different legal meanings associated with them.
There is a gap? …. What a car is worth or anything for that matter is a simple fact of what price it changes hands at. Other then an actual selling price the term “worth” has no meaning without a qualifier, what you think a car is “worth” someone else might not pay 1/4er of that.
There was no “additional dealer markup” in 2006 and if there was it would have no relevance on anything. The MSRP of any vehicle is fairly easy to find even back in 2006.
Besides the acronym MSRP can not by definition include any other markup. For the record there is about 10 to 11% from MSRP to invoice on a Porsche and that’s public information. The .87 you suggest would imply there is 13% which is wrong.
On top of that if you depreciate a car 10% a year you’re going to have a lot of explaining to do to those guys who are driving around in cars whose price in the open market is a lot more or less than that. There is no straight line way to determine deprecation since market conditions vary.
There is no reason you have to justify offering less, just offer less because you want to and that’s where your own personal definition of “worth” on that car is.
The cars were listed as used cause that's what the seller enters. I checked out enough to find out they were new cars with sometimes just a few miles over delivery miles. The number of miles listed in the ad was what caught my eye. To find a used car with sometimes less than 10 miles on its odometer is well rare. My research found too many of these and their existence told me all I need to know about the Boxster market at that time and told me that instead of dealing with used cars offered by private sellers who were clearly not current on the market value of their used Boxsters -- many no doubt sold on the idea that buying one was an "investment" -- I would be better off trying to buy a new one. Which I managed to do with around a $5K discount from MSRP.
The research was back in late 2001 and early 2002 just before I bought my Boxster which I bought in Jan of 2002.
Earlier this year when I was again in the new Porsche market my searches turned up a large number of 2008 "demos". I looked at some cars and again some had very low miles, down in the single digits in a few case, though a few had more miles, enough so to perhaps justify the demo label.
As for dealer markup there can always be mark up. I walked into a GMC/Buick dealer back when GMC dealers were closing left and right and came upon a new Buick with a huge ADM. Hey, if someone doesn't know the car market someone can pay that price for a car. I've seen ADM's tacked on to Porsches too.
Also, some resellers have the original window sticker -- I make sure to get one when I buy a new car and when I go to sell the original sticker goes with the car -- and it may have some mark up on the price that the buyer made when demand was high, or simply because he was uninformed about the market at the time.
My point is in mentioning it is that the mark up gets subtracted and the depreciation starts from the invoice price and the invoice price is based upon what percentage over invoice the cars are listed for.
As for the 0.87 of MSRP for invoice that was a number passed around way back in 02 and I and other buyers used it with good results. It may be more. It may be less. If someone can come up with a better number then a shopper can use that number.
The depreciation formula is what it is. As I mentioned various factors can play a role, do play a role to soften the price slide or accelerate it. Try selling a Chrysler or Saturn or Pontiac used car now.
You want to know what your brand new car is worth right after you buy it?
Take your nice shiny new car to a car broker and have him quote you a price to buy your car right now cash and he'll quote you a price based on the current auction market price. My advice unless you want to be seriously depressed avoid doing this. Ignoring the smoke and mirrors that come into play when trading in a car for a new car what the broker quotes you is very close to what the car is worth.
Many a car maker learned the hard way just what cars were worth when lease return cars were coming back and the residual was way below what had been used when the lease was written.
Sincerely,
Macster.
11-02-2009, 11:24 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
On the 997 board there was a flurry of threads over the last couple of months about the deals people were getting. For example I got 20% off my 09 C4S. What are the similar numbers these days for 09 Cayman and Cayman S? Is there any trunk money on these cars? I'm not looking to buy but a colleague is. Thx.
11-02-2009, 12:06 PM
#41
“The cars were listed as used cause that's what the seller enters. I checked out enough to find out they were new cars with sometimes just a few miles over delivery miles. The number of miles listed in the ad was what caught my eye. To find a used car with sometimes less than 10 miles on its odometer is well rare. My research found too many of these and their existence told me all I need to know about the Boxster market at that time and told me that instead of dealing with used cars offered by private sellers who were clearly not current on the market value of their used Boxsters -- many no doubt sold on the idea that buying one was an "investment" -- I would be better off trying to buy a new one. Which I managed to do with around a $5K discount from MSRP.”
Again, a “used car” has to have a title which has been assigned to an individual. A deal can not advertise a car as “used” if it still have the COO and not a title. Also all Porsche come into the state with right around 10 miles on them already and if they have been sitting on a dealers lot for any amount of time then they’re going to have a lot more. Your research is flawed since by law a dealer can not sell a car as “used” unless the title has been issued to someone other than a dealer. There is no advantage to that for a dealer and no franchise Porsche dealer would risk breaking the law.
” Earlier this year when I was again in the new Porsche market my searches turned up a large number of 2008 "demos". I looked at some cars and again some had very low miles, down in the single digits in a few case, though a few had more miles, enough so to perhaps justify the demo label.”
The same thing applies here, once its punched as a demo then it’s a demo not anything else and sure there are still some 2008’s around which are punched as demos. That means the dealer got assistance from Porsche on their cost and the warranty has already started. The miles again will not be single digits, since they come in most of the time with more than single digits and if they have been sitting around they would have been moved around and test driven and so forth. You wont find a 2009 around with single digits right now.
“As for dealer markup there can always be mark up. I walked into a GMC/Buick dealer back when GMC dealers were closing left and right and came upon a new Buick with a huge ADM. Hey, if someone doesn't know the car market someone can pay that price for a car. I've seen ADM's tacked on to Porsches too.”
Buick’ going for higher then MSRP LOL sorry but not in this market. Porsche does not allow its franchised dealers to sell above MSRP. Now some dealers will punch the car and then mark it up but not anytime recently and with the proliferation of dealers over the past 10 years the only mark up has been on the really limited cars like GT3, GT2 etc. What a GMC dealer does is meaningless and we all know they’re not selling domestic cars with markup these days or in 2008.
“As for the 0.87 of MSRP for invoice that was a number passed around way back in 02 and I and other buyers used it with good results. It may be more. It may be less. If someone can come up with a better number then a shopper can use that number."
The depreciation formula is what it is. As I mentioned various factors can play a role, do play a role to soften the price slide or accelerate it. Try selling a Chrysler or Saturn or Pontiac used car now.”
There is no formula for depreciation and what appeared to work in 2002 really has no influence on what the market is like in 2009. We’re not talking about those domestic makes and their depreciation has nothing to do with the way a new Porsche might depreciate.
” Take your nice shiny new car to a car broker and have him quote you a price to buy your car right now cash and he'll quote you a price based on the current auction market price. My advice unless you want to be seriously depressed avoid doing this. Ignoring the smoke and mirrors that come into play when trading in a car for a new car what the broker quotes you is very close to what the car is worth.”
What kind of smoke and mirrors are you talking about? Do you think anyone in their right mind thinks they would buy a car, then drive it off the lot once its been titled and punched and expect to get what they paid for it right away?
” Many a car maker learned the hard way just what cars were worth when lease return cars were coming back and the residual was way below what had been used when the lease was written.”
That’s true except you got it backwards. Many of the manufacturer’s financial arms mispriced the markets in their residuals and the residual price of the lease was much higher than the cars real value in the open market. Many manufacturers put pressure on their financial subsidiaries to do that in order to move product. There is nothing new about that and not too much unlike a ponzi scheme for them they were able to keep it sustained by moving more and move product. When the sales dried up they got caught holding the bag. Fortunately for Porsche they have never had to get out of the leasing game and were pretty good at controlling price until 2009. What does this have to do with your original points or the point of the tread?
No offense but you have a number of facts wrong, good discussion though!
Thanks
Again, a “used car” has to have a title which has been assigned to an individual. A deal can not advertise a car as “used” if it still have the COO and not a title. Also all Porsche come into the state with right around 10 miles on them already and if they have been sitting on a dealers lot for any amount of time then they’re going to have a lot more. Your research is flawed since by law a dealer can not sell a car as “used” unless the title has been issued to someone other than a dealer. There is no advantage to that for a dealer and no franchise Porsche dealer would risk breaking the law.
” Earlier this year when I was again in the new Porsche market my searches turned up a large number of 2008 "demos". I looked at some cars and again some had very low miles, down in the single digits in a few case, though a few had more miles, enough so to perhaps justify the demo label.”
The same thing applies here, once its punched as a demo then it’s a demo not anything else and sure there are still some 2008’s around which are punched as demos. That means the dealer got assistance from Porsche on their cost and the warranty has already started. The miles again will not be single digits, since they come in most of the time with more than single digits and if they have been sitting around they would have been moved around and test driven and so forth. You wont find a 2009 around with single digits right now.
“As for dealer markup there can always be mark up. I walked into a GMC/Buick dealer back when GMC dealers were closing left and right and came upon a new Buick with a huge ADM. Hey, if someone doesn't know the car market someone can pay that price for a car. I've seen ADM's tacked on to Porsches too.”
Buick’ going for higher then MSRP LOL sorry but not in this market. Porsche does not allow its franchised dealers to sell above MSRP. Now some dealers will punch the car and then mark it up but not anytime recently and with the proliferation of dealers over the past 10 years the only mark up has been on the really limited cars like GT3, GT2 etc. What a GMC dealer does is meaningless and we all know they’re not selling domestic cars with markup these days or in 2008.
“As for the 0.87 of MSRP for invoice that was a number passed around way back in 02 and I and other buyers used it with good results. It may be more. It may be less. If someone can come up with a better number then a shopper can use that number."
The depreciation formula is what it is. As I mentioned various factors can play a role, do play a role to soften the price slide or accelerate it. Try selling a Chrysler or Saturn or Pontiac used car now.”
There is no formula for depreciation and what appeared to work in 2002 really has no influence on what the market is like in 2009. We’re not talking about those domestic makes and their depreciation has nothing to do with the way a new Porsche might depreciate.
” Take your nice shiny new car to a car broker and have him quote you a price to buy your car right now cash and he'll quote you a price based on the current auction market price. My advice unless you want to be seriously depressed avoid doing this. Ignoring the smoke and mirrors that come into play when trading in a car for a new car what the broker quotes you is very close to what the car is worth.”
What kind of smoke and mirrors are you talking about? Do you think anyone in their right mind thinks they would buy a car, then drive it off the lot once its been titled and punched and expect to get what they paid for it right away?
” Many a car maker learned the hard way just what cars were worth when lease return cars were coming back and the residual was way below what had been used when the lease was written.”
That’s true except you got it backwards. Many of the manufacturer’s financial arms mispriced the markets in their residuals and the residual price of the lease was much higher than the cars real value in the open market. Many manufacturers put pressure on their financial subsidiaries to do that in order to move product. There is nothing new about that and not too much unlike a ponzi scheme for them they were able to keep it sustained by moving more and move product. When the sales dried up they got caught holding the bag. Fortunately for Porsche they have never had to get out of the leasing game and were pretty good at controlling price until 2009. What does this have to do with your original points or the point of the tread?
No offense but you have a number of facts wrong, good discussion though!
Thanks
11-04-2009, 02:28 PM
#42
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2009 CS w/ pdk's (retail $75) can be had for $68.5 with 1.9% financing, or $63.5 cash purchase (I have multiple offers), but I am balking, as I think for that $$ I'd prefer a 966 GT3
11-05-2009, 10:44 AM
#44
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11-05-2009, 10:53 AM
#45
Sorry I was looking at the 68 number. We sold out of 09 mid engines and some of the 72k boxsters went in the 56/7 range the caymans went before the best deals. My bad