Dave DE

I have personal knowledge of another car (non Porsche) that has recently passed inspection with a typical aftermarket setup. The factory mini-cat and large cat were replaced with a new downpipe and exhaust that included a single aftermarket cat. I'm not sure the dmv tech did a visual. The aftermarket cat is plainly visible under the car in approximately the same location as stock, but quite a bit smaller in size. They plug into the OBDII port to pull codes, and this seems to be the main thing they are interested in.

Speaking of codes, the other issue with no cats is the CE light. I don't know if you have a solution in mind for this, but some people are reluctant to re-program their ECU due to warranty concerns. Whatever solution you choose, I think most people would still want the CE light to be functional for non-exhaust related problems in case something else goes wrong with the engine. It seems to me that since the Cayman is a newly released car, factory warranty considerations will probably be important to many owners.

To summarize, my wish list would be a header/exhaust system that includes hi flow cats with O2 bungs before and after the cat. This would allow me to keep the ECU happy and the DMV. As I mentioned in my original post, one thing that is lacking in the products that are available now is that they have all retained the factory cat location and header/exhaust joint location. There are good reasons to do this, but it limits the design quite a bit. If there was some way to get the longer header runners that are available for older boxsters (which don't have the mini-cats), that is something that would be unique as far as I know. I assume this would mean a system where the headers and exhaust would have to be purchased together since the junction at the back of the header would be in a non-stock location. Maybe you could make one version with cats and another without and we could both be happy!

I'm no expert on any of this stuff - just my opinion based on discussions with other Cayman owners and the research I did when shopping for a system.

hope that helps, Dave

Chris R.

Since the thread was asking about a 'race' system, I would assume that having headers and high flow cats would not have been out of line. There are several companies that are already making sucj items and selling a lot of them. What it sounds like Borla would like to make is a simple cat back system.

In that case, I would suggest that your system look nice (not hanging down like some or with weird square mufflers)...and no typical Borla tips....yuck.
It should make power, not lose any. More than 8hp would be nice and possible according to other systems that have been tested independently.
It should sound nice...not too loud but not whisper quiet either. I have a Milltek and its way too quiet...like to the point where I'm considering cutting off the pre mufflers and replacing them with a peice of stainless steel pipe!
Cost should be reasonable...not like some other systems.

bet

For what it is worth....this is exactly what I have been looking for, for my Cayman...

Cat back, a little louder than stock, No resonance, some HP and Torque gain (but most importantly none lost in the curves), doesn't look goofy, can use factory and/or manufacturer tips, not ungodly pricey, and nice fit and finish. I think maybe I am dreaming though...but since a manufacturer wanted input I thought I would give it.

david borla

First of all I want to thank all of you for the feedback you have given us. You are are a knowlegeable and articulate group and I am proud to be a part of this forum. Furthermore, I am confident that as a result of this thread we will be able to meet (or even exceed) most of your expectations.

Just for clarification, we use the term "race system" to distinguish it from a street legal system.

We all agree that high flow cats are illegal for street use but some in the Cayman community have had success passing emmisions tests with high flow cats regardless.

Our dillemma is that as a manufacturer we have to follow federal regulations to a tee. As a result, there is no point in us using aftermarket cats in this exhaust system because the system will not be legal for street use. Consequently, since it's a "race system" it only makes sense to design the system for the most power. Obviously, eliminating the cats will make much more power than using high flow cats.

Creating a system with aftermarket cats would be the worst of both worlds for Borla because it would be an "off higway use only" or "race" system that does not make the maximum amount of horsepower.

I must clarify that I am not thumbing my nose at systems with high flow cats and I fully understand that many of you have had success and are very happy with them. It just doesn't make any sense for us to do this because we cannot offer it as street legal anyway. Whatever we design for the Cayman S (cats or not) will have to be labeled as "off road only" or "competition use only" etc...

The Borla Exhaust System for the Cayman S is being designed exclusively for competition use and will have maximum horsepower gains. When it comes time for emissions testing and street use, the owner will have to return the vehicle to stock, have the tests done and then reinstall the race exhaust and headers before returning to the track.

At the very least I hope you understand our position and I believe that you will gain some confidence in our approach once the performance figures and photos are available. We believe that swapping the stock exhaust for infrequent emmisions tests will be well worth the trouble considering the features and benefits of this exhaust system.

Please let me know your thoughts.

928Buyer

David, have you done your research and talked to the folks over at caymanclub.net about the various aftermarket cats that are available and have been used in existing exhaust systems for the Cayman?

David, I'm sorry to disagree here but your lack of knowledge about how the exhaust works on the Cayman is showing. Every single header without cats has produced LESS, not more HP on a variety of different dynos. Not only does it affect HP across the entire rpm range, but the engine revs significantly slower and takes longer to reach redline when coupled with a header with no cat vs. either a high flow cat or the stock cat. I would again point you to the expertise found on the caymanclub.net site and point you to the videos of the 9ff exhaust system which is a header with no cat vs. the Milltek exhaust system which is a header with a 200 cel race cat. Those two cars went on the dyno back to back and the differences in both hp and ability to rev were very noticeable.

I agree with you here whether you do no cat or race cat it is going to have to be labelled off road use only unless you simply do a cat-back system and leave the factory manifolds and first cats in place.

I guess my last thought is that I will believe it when I see it. Right now there is an exhaust system from vividracing that had a dyno chart posted on caymanclub.net that claims to reach a 23hp gain from a cat-back system only. This is, of course, completely bogus yet vividracing is advertising as such on their site and they've convinced at least one buyer that it is true. The more informed crowd has requested independent verification. To be fair I think you need to expect that buyers will want independent verification as well from a trusted source like caymanclub.net.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck in developing whatever system you decide to develop for the cayman and if I can be of any assistance just send me a private message and I will do my best to help you.

Chris R.

Beware of the Cayman club though...it is indeed a good place for info but I can tell you right now that if you (Borla) do not buy a banner or become a sponsor, your product will never be properly recognized there. Lots of politics....
The best exhaust for the Cayman is always the one that the owner of the board is presently "testing".

david borla

We haven't even begun working on our header and we only have our very first exhaust system prototype done for this application. The factory header has not even been removed yet. I can assure you that I'll keep you posted on our progress and we will (as we have for 30 yrs.) be honest about our dyno results. We haven't dug into any kind of HP issues yet. Haven't even dyno'd the prototype exhaust because the owner needed his vehicle back for the weekend. I'll let you know what happens when we remove the cats and I'll keep you posted as development continues. Let us play around a little bit before you get too critical. Thanks.

bet

This may get my vote for Rennlist post of year for 2007. Yes the Kool-aid is very strong and sweet at CC.

Chris R.

I'm here all week!!
In all fairness, the owner does go through some good testing procedures and certainly has a bunch of good articles that a cayman owner can learn from.

bet

Don't get me wrong CC has its place and there is no question there is some good information on the site. Like most websites, you just have to be able to read through (and be able to spot) some of the BS not to mention the "do a search" post to find the good information.

david borla

Thanks for all of your input guys. Since we are currently in the development phase for our Cayman exhaust, our agenda at this point is simply to get an understanding of what you guys are looking for out of an aftermarket exhaust and the reasoning behind it. We have all the diagnostic equipment necessary to monitor the results of our work and we'd like to know what kind of realistic enhancements you guys are looking for regarding power, sound, looks, fit, durability etc. It's up to us to figure out how to deliver what you are looking for!

For instance, people have mentioned that they'd like to see aftermarket cats in place for their Cayman aftermarket exhaust. However, what I'd really like to know is what benefits you are looking for rather than simply that you'd like to have cats. What specific benefits are you looking for? Something that will pass an emissions "sniff test"? Something that will be better for the environment? Something that will ensure it is "street legal"? Something that will eliminate a CEL? Something that makes power?

We all know that there is a lot of misinformation passed around the web and in my opinion, unless you have personally experimented with different exhaust configurations on the Cayman and used flow benches and dynos to test your results I don't believe that you can really know how the car behaves. We have strictly dedicated ourselves to the development of high performance exhaust systems and we have made the investment in both time and equipment to ensure that we can deliver products that fit your needs. Please tell us what benefits you are looking for and give us a chance to put our resources and 3 decades of experience to work for you.

Borla Exhaust products were well received by the Porsche community in the 80's and 90's and although the demographics of Porsche owners may have changed a little bit since then, we believe that we can again undoubtedly offer highly desireable products. Porsche owners are knowledgeable and do their homework so we are certain that if we design and build the right products, at the right prices, Porsche owners will take notice.

In my opinion it's really not about loyalty to any particular website as I am only interested in product development and not promotion at this point. For clarification, I am a Porsche owner myself and am a member of Rennlist as an enthusiast. That's why I have chosen to do this research on Rennlist as opposed to other websites.

For the record, if we are satisfied with our exhaust upgrade options for the Cayman S and decide to get the word out, I have no hesitation in becoming a paying advertiser on caymanclub and I am certain that there is value in promoting there.

Thanks again for all of your valuable input,

db

928Buyer

David,
I gotta ask, if you are interested in what Cayman owners want out of an exhaust for research purposes then why not ask that question at the caymanclub.net website where most Cayman owners reside? You could easily start a topic over there or even a poll to get a feel for what people want out of an exhaust. If you want feedback for something related to a Cayman that is the place to get it. If you need feedback on a 930 or 944 then Rennlist is the right place. Despite Chris R's misinformation above I think you'll find a wealth of opinions and feedback from members on that site, many of whom are long time Porsche owners and some even have Borla exhausts on other p-cars that they own. I want to see you guys suceed so I'm trying to help you get the feedback you are looking for.

david borla

Will do, thanks for the heads up. Do you know if the moderators will allow a non-supporting manufacturer to ask questions? Some sites do not. Please advise, thanks.

db

928Buyer

Yes they will. The sysop there said he called you.

'ringmeister

I strongly 2nd that....the unconditional cayman adoration can stiffling not too mention the board owner feels the need to interject in what feels like every thread. i'll pobably be banned now....