pcar964

purpose of cayman: once again make tons of $$ by selling wet sump, sporty grand touring cars under the guise of hard core sports cars. That's fine with me - for a street car, I'm sure they'll be a blast to drive. But turbo and GT3 are only new pcars really made to take regular track use, imo. I suppose autoX would be a good purpose for the cayman, then.

mooty

if by "track use" you mean DE not racing, then wet sump is not a prob at all. there are plenty of M3 out there and they don't have oil starvation prob

pcar964

For some people, DE means serious suspension, aggressive camber, R compound tires, track pads, etc... in terms of stresses and loads on engine, not much of a difference compared with club racing. For the beginner DE participant, agreed that it wouldn't make much of a difference. But invariably, the beginner DE participant will eventually become an "advanced" DE-er...

STLPCA

You're kidding, right?

I assume you consider your '95 993 one of the "hard core sports cars." I do.

The truth is a bone stock Cayman S should walk away from my somewhat performance street/track modded '96 993 coupe - on the street & on the track. Add performance options (PASM/Chrono) & the Cayman should spank my 993 hard. Spend the $$ I've spent on suspension, LWF, LSD G50/21, etc. on aftermarket mods for the Cayman & my "last of the oil cooled" 911 hard core sports car will be a rolling chicane. Oh, & the Cayman will do it all w/a real air conditioner.

Now, I still love my 993 even w/its quirks, but my head is out of the dry sump enough to realize a lot of good things have happened in the automotive world in the past decade. IMNSHO the Cayman S seems to be one of them.

BTW, look at the lap times for the 993 & Cayman at the 'Ring & report back. Consider the speed the Cayman must carry through the turns to offset its HP deficit compared to some of the other P cars, like the 993TT.

Here's a helper.

STLPCA

Just out of curiosity, are you one of those people? I ask because most PCA regions don't appreciate those who run DEs as hard as competitive Club Racing. Indeed, with a mix of varying DE cars & restricted passing, I don't think it's very likely. Do you have any basis for your comparative stresses comment?

mooty

For some people, DE means serious suspension, aggressive camber, R compound tires, track pads, etc... in terms of stresses and loads on engine,
________________
i have had a 996c2, it had roll bar, race seats, 6 point harness, moton doubles, r compounds, 3+ deg of camber all around, pagid oranges and 6000 track miles in 9 months. i think that qualifies as putting some seriouls load on a motor. i have never had oil starvation, smoking, RMS etc.

i also have a e36m3 with similar set up as above except close to 4 deg of camber all around. it too has wet sump motor, i dont' even bother putting accusump in there. it has no oil starvation issues.

in order to blow up a wet sump'd m96 engine, you need slicks and high banked ovals. if you are on mpsc, corsa, ssr, it's really unlikely to have starvation issues.

oh, and by the way, i was very nervous about my m96 blowing up until my mechanic told me that don't worry, until i can do thunderhill with cyclone in less than 2 min or laguna in less than 1:35, i will not see oil starvation. those time are about what a top pro can do in a r compound 996c2.

no offense, Pcar 964 but DE has ABOSOLUTE no resemblence to club racing or racing of ANY type. in DE's you don't dive bomb ppl, you don't try to outbrake each other, you don't try to shall we say "block" ppl and taking your car off track shoud not be an option. if you drove off track in a DE, you have gone too hard for your ability. there are plenty of very very very fast drivers in CA region, the are fast in DE, but never go OTE during a DE. they sure go all out on race day though.

vegasgolf98

"Just inside information from my most reliable source and a member of PMS"
Its true, but it only means that Porsche is testing it - nothing else. I was just excited to see that they were testing it.

ked

PAG makes a ton of $ on the 911, year after year, in many ways. It is the yardstick by which all sports cars are measured. The brandname is iconic, even transcendent.

There are 3 unique "911s" w/ meaning in our civilization... the attack on the WTC, the emergency call # & the best sports / GT car in human history (also the most long-standing of the 3, only one having a completely positive context & commercial usage). What business in their right mind would abandon that status?

There are many 911 owners who will never buy anything but a 911 from Porsche (as if the 356 never went out of production!). Plus, there are many aspirants who will not buy a Porsche until they can buy the 911. Whenever I visit a dealership, fewer 911s are laying around the lot than any other model (excepting the CGT). It has the highest resale value (try to buy a nice early '70s lately? a pristine '89? a late '90s C2S?). No matter what other appellation is added to the number (RS, Carrera, GT1/2/3, 997) there will be a 911 as long as there is Porsche.

pcar964

Wow, what is your guys' problem? I state a few facts and then suddenly I'm bombarded with "it's faster than your 993" and "maybe you shouldn't be running so hard in DEs"

Fact: The Cayman (and 996 and boxster) engines are wet sump, and in the opinion of many mechanics and owners, are not suitable for regular hard track use. Why else would Porsche have an "OIL STARVATION KIT" as an option for the 996? Does this mean the new cars aren't faster than the old cars? No. They are absolutely faster. That doesn't make them more suitable track cars, however.

Fact: Some people (myself included) in DEs push these cars to their limits. If you have a problem with someone driving their car fast on a track day, maybe you should look into a different hobby. I have never had a major incident at a DE day, and I assure you most times I'm pushing it very hard. It IS possible to drive at the limit and still be responsible.

And Dan 96C2, even though I love my 993 and appreciate the awesome build quality and bulletproof race-proven dry sump bottom end, I am under no illusions that a stock 993 is anything other than an overweight grand touring car. However, with a few modifications the car does become a hardcore track car, and you can rest assured that every part of the drivetrain is derived straight from the racing program. The new cars, as has been stated 1000's of times, don't share any drivetrain parts (engine or transmission) with the race cars, and are therefore inherently weaker. Am I saying they're terrible? No. Am I saying they're more street-oriented? Yes.

Look, if I decide to buy a fun street car as a daily driver, who knows some day I might be leasing a Cayman S... But the only new Pcar I'd consider buying for regular track use is a GT3, no question. That's my opinion, feel free to disagree - I just don't know why people get so PERSONALLY offended when I question the quality of a car. It's as if you people define your own "worth" by the car you drive, which I hope is not the case.

Boxsterund914

Good start for the thread " what is the intent/purpose of the Cayman?". Excellent question, I think it is for "gasp" profit first and second because it is a natural evolution of the mid-engine Boxster design. The third and the greatest thing for all of us is they get to further the "engineering excellence stuff" with another mid-engine design.

When I saw the designs for the Boxster I thought "Porsche has got some healthy bucks and is trying to get serious again". The Cayman is a natural off-shoot of that. Every time Porsche has made money off the "pusher car" it sinks some engineering effort into some fairly brilliant designs. After selling some of the cute and quirky 356's they made some brilliant mid-engine race cars, like RSK's and 550's. They took 911 money and made some very serious ground pounding, multiple race winning mid-engine wondercars. Porsche's new flagship, the Carrera GT is mid-engine.

You gotta love the people that feed at the 911 trough. The more they pay for the same bundle of parts that are assembled with the engine on the "wrong" side of the rear wheels, the lower our cost for brilliantly engineered "entry level Porsches".....psst. shush, don't tell anyone! tee hee!

pcar964

Boxsterund914, you might want to review the racing history of 911s before you postulate that the engine is in the "wrong end." It's funny, because I don't recall any Boxster race victories...

Mid engine is undoubtedly a "better balanced" chassis layout - but that doesn't necessarily mean rear engine is "wrong." Rear engine allows for earlier on-throttle exiting corners, and braking is more even front to rear with rear engine layout as well.

That said, it would be awesome if Porsche could build a Cayman with the quality and durability seen in pre-996 cars...

Boxsterund914

No, you don't see many Boxsters racing. Racing production cars is, for the most part, done for the "love of" or the "promotion of" a brand or for a cost/convenience issue. Rarely does any racer consider his/her production-based race car as the hands down, be-all end-all, best race car design of all time. 911's along with many other sports cars have interesting racing histories. My point was more along the lines of what you said here.... Mid engine is better, it just is. Tell me, would you respect a chassis designer, doing a clean sheet high performance or race car design who offered a rear engine design as the best choice? I don't think so, and that's all I'm trying to say.

The 911 was an interesting idea. The engineering at Porsche is so good they have been able to make the whacky thing work very well and that's great! As I've said elsewhere on this site, "use the 911 as a pedigree but not a prison".

I think that the direction that Porsche is going is great and I think that for the amount of development time into the water cooled motors so far....Well, they're doing pretty good in my book. It's not like the air cooled motors didn't have some "issues" over their lifespan.

I am seriously not trying to "dis" anyone, I know that this site is 911-centric. I just think there is room to grow and cool new stuff to try!

Jim Michaels

Well said; rear engine is just not optimal for the 21st century. Same for air/oil-cooling and torsion bar suspensions. It's time for the cutting edge to move foward, but it's also okay with me if other 911 buyers don't want to be dragged into the 21st century along with me.

LVDell

Ok, so then let me throw this log onto the fire.......what are the odds that a 911 could still be a 911 if the engineers moved the engine foward a bit (ala mid-engine). Is the only thing that identifies the 911 is rear engine and a back seat. I would be willing to lose the back seat to have better balance, but then again isn't that what the Cayman is for (just without the motor)???

I think I just answered my own question.....put the 3.8 997S motor in the Cayman and the 911 line would disappear......or would it?

Jim Michaels

Dell: You might be thinking along the same lines that PAG thought a few years ago; how do we get rid of this archaic rear engine without getting hurt financially? Somewhere along the line (how long will it take?) increasing numbers of 911 buyers will be asking for a mid-engine too. At some point they will likely get one, along with the rear trunk and hatchback. The 911 will still have the biggest motor and price tag, so all will be in order.