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Cayman 981s vs. 718

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Old 01-11-2018, 06:04 PM
  #91  
il pirata
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Guys get back on point or the thread will be closed and several of you will get a PM.
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:47 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by terbiumactivated View Post
Selo, the PDK variants are faster than the MT, first time in Porsche history an automatic was faster, I wonder if you can figure out why that is true?
Because the computer shifts faster than humans, which apparently has become very important now that car companies care more about bragging rights pertaining to the 'Ring than about joy in motoring.
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:48 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by il pirata View Post
Guys get back on point or the thread will be closed and several of you will get a PM.
Am I in trouble for voicing my opinion regarding the 718, which is what I thought this forum was about, or are the other dudes in trouble for calling me a troll, simply for voicing my opinion?
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:03 PM
  #94  
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You guys are trying to objectively discuss a topic that is almost entirely subjective. There is no answer. Based upon the excellent spelling, punctuation, grammar and syntax of most of you, I thought you would recognize how futile it is and call it a day much sooner. Both the 981 and 718 are great cars and each push various buttons for various owners for various reasons. No sense trying to argue over which is better. Although I do think the graphics on my car make it look better than all your cars combined.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:10 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by Selo View Post
Am I in trouble for voicing my opinion regarding the 718, which is what I thought this forum was about, or are the other dudes in trouble for calling me a troll, simply for voicing my opinion?
Well since you asked this "Can't spell PDSLUSH KBOX without PDK." is trolling. AFTER my post several members got their posts deleted for continuing on.

Most of you are more than capable of of expressing your viewpoint in a civil manner. If someone disagrees so what? Move on.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:12 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by il pirata View Post
Well since you asked this "Can't spell PDSLUSH KBOX without PDK." is trolling. AFTER my post several members got their posts deleted for continuing on.

Most of you are more than capable of of expressing your viewpoint in a civil manner. If someone disagrees so what? Move on.
Agreed. Good call. But the junior high schooler trapped inside me just couldn't resist.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:15 PM
  #97  
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bye everyone, it's been fun
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:15 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Selo View Post
Agreed. Good call. But the junior high schooler trapped inside me just couldn't resist.

Fair enough. The issue is when more than 1 does it.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:45 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by terbiumactivated View Post
bye everyone, it's been fun
You wont leave....ya can't...you gotta have rennlist daily or you aint right. You will leave finally when you get banned. Its just the way it is. Never changes. Ever.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:18 AM
  #100  
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dinnah let the door hitcha in the azz, lad!

buh bye!
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:09 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by lajoiedp View Post
With that statement you've just confirm your true troll-dumb. Just another NA 6 Cyl Porsche owner who can't stand the fact that a turbocharge 4 Cyl engine can outperform their NA 6 Cyl.

BTW, 2017 worldwide sales of 718's were up. "718 models have also significantly exceeded the previous year’s figures. Around 25,000 of the mid-engine sports cars were delivered, marking an increase of six per cent." You might want to get your facts straight.
Hmm, I guess I'm just another whiny NA 6 Cyl Porsche owner. Please keep in mind the 3.8 is also a NA 6 cyl and is found in 981s, including mine. I'm not complaining nor trying to exert superiority every time I don't agree with someone's view. However I do like to offer counterpoint when relevant.

Not an excuse, but's it's also noteworthy to keep in mind Porsche was always keen to maintain a performance gap between the 981 S/GTS and base 991 since they shared the same motor for 4 years. My 2012 987 Cayman R was rated at 330 hp with the same 3.4 that Porsche elected to limit to 315 hp in the newer generation 981 Boxster S, while the 991's 3.4 (same motor) was rated at 350 hp. Sometimes it's hard to make perfect sense of Porsche's marketing decisions. As if the Boxster/Cayman would have toppled or impacted 911 sales? It's a girl's car, right?

If I owned a 981 S coming to the end of its warranty and so worried about my car's performance I would have already purchased German Porsche specialist FVD Brombacher's tune for $1300 which safely pumps the 981 Boxster S from 315 hp to 352 hp/291 tq. I'm not normally an advocate for tunes since most aren't the product of actual automotive software engineers, but Germany's FVD Brombacher's software engineers were actually trained and worked for Bosch and Siemans in Germany and have extensive factory expertise in writing software code for Porsche. They also don't remove ANY of the OEM software safety features. Win-Win. FVD sells no software enhancement for the 718s. If someone else does, use at high risk. My point is the playing field is easily leveled if bragging rights are that important to you. To me they're not, but I don't like having performance stats thrown out like it's all that matters. To me these cars are all about feel and sensory enjoyment. I didn't buy my first Boxster (2008 RS60 Spyder) to impress car geeks. I bought it for pure driving pleasure, and even at a lowly 303 hp rating it was an absolute joy to drive and own. If that was still in my garage I would be just as happy and feel I had lost nothing in the last 10 years of Boxster development. Pre-DFI 987s are very visceral and the road feel is amazing. I'm not in a race with anyone.

As an aside, I find it interesting that the turbo era appears to have naturally ended Porsche's deliberate detuning of motors for the Boxster/Cayman platform to keep them from easily beating up the Carrera S, not just the base model. Now Porsche doesn't have to detune anymore since they no longer share the same cylinder count and therefore performance potential. 2 less cylinders has naturally emasculated the platform comparatively, and I'm betting Porsche will ensure the next generation CPUs can't be cracked open like the 991.2 has been, so no way to bridge the gap through irresponsible tuners. When Porsche ushers in their electric sports car era, they'll more easily be able to control power output through size of batteries and electric motor output. I recently read up on the Boxster E and it was very interesting. Porsche has been hard at work on an all-electric sports car for the better part of 10 years now. The Boxster E was rated at 398 tq back in 2011. Not bad. Curious to know what Porsche has been up to in the years since.

As for sales, 25,000 Boxsters/Caymans for one model year seems quite a lot. I haven't seen that figure anywhere. Not doubting you. In the US (Porsche's most important market), sales dropped 19% for the introductory year of the 718. 1,200 less units sold compared to the 981 in its final year. Discount that if you wish but this market and the German domestic market matter more to Porsche than all else. I wouldn't mind at all if the opposite were true and 718s exceeded 981 sales. That would be more normal. But I also believe Porsche is pricing these cars out of the market (except in China obviously) and I don't want to see this platform falter. I can literally drive days without seeing another Porsche sports car, and I live in the 8th largest city in the US. Not that I want to see a Porsche at every traffic light.

I'm trying to resist dropping the Spyder/GT4 performance measure into this debate. It's getting harder to not. But if you're curious, for the same $1300, FVD brings my Spyder's NA 6 Cyl to 412 hp/336 tq/191 mph top speed. Picture me dropping the mic.
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Old 01-13-2018, 01:34 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by MidEngineRules View Post
As for sales, 25,000 Boxsters/Caymans for one model year seems quite a lot. I haven't seen that figure anywhere. Not doubting you. In the US (Porsche's most important market), sales dropped 19% for the introductory year of the 718. 1,200 less units sold compared to the 981 in its final year. Discount that if you wish but this market and the German domestic market matter more to Porsche than all else. I wouldn't mind at all if the opposite were true and 718s exceeded 981 sales. That would be more normal. But I also believe Porsche is pricing these cars out of the market (except in China obviously) and I don't want to see this platform falter. I can literally drive days without seeing another Porsche sports car, and I live in the 8th largest city in the US. Not that I want to see a Porsche at every traffic light.
To be clear, the US and German domestic markets are not THE most important markets. US and China sales were close in 2015, China surpassed the US in 2016, and the gap grew wider in 2017. More importantly, where the US and German markets saw yoy growth of 5% and 1% respectively for 2017, China saw 12% growth. China is the most important market any way you slice it. This isn't a new pattern, the yoy growth in sales in China has been exceeding other regions for a while and it doesn't take a crystal ball to have known this was coming years ago, plenty of time for Porsche to have aligned the 718 product planning with their most important market. That global 718 sales are better than 981 sales in spite of the weak demand in the US sounds to me like they made some good decisions with the 718. Porsche isn't stupid, I bet they knew the flat 4 would have Americans up in arms, but they ran the numbers and figured whatever sales they might lose in the US would be more than covered by increases in other markets. We might not like it in 'murica and clearly the sales numbers reflect that but the reality is that we haven't been the most important market for a while now and that's probably not going to change anytime soon.

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/comp...ord-13310.html

As for the 981 vs 718 debate, I wouldn't say one is better than the other but it's probably fair to say the 718 was designed with more of an eye towards EU and Chinese markets where new emissions regulations (euro6) and taxes (emissions & displacement based) make the na flat 6 less competitive than a similar powered smaller displacement turbo 4. There's probably some Chinese Porsche forum somewhere where everyone is bagging on the old tractor engine of a flat 6 compared to the more advanced and more powerful turbo 4.
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Old 01-13-2018, 03:57 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by ajw45 View Post
More importantly, where the US and German markets saw yoy growth of 5% and 1% respectively for 2017 ... As for the 981 vs 718 debate, I wouldn't say one is better than the other but it's probably fair to say the 718 was designed with more of an eye towards EU and Chinese markets where new emissions regulations (euro6) and taxes (emissions & displacement based) make the na flat 6 less competitive than a similar powered smaller displacement turbo 4. There's probably some Chinese Porsche forum somewhere where everyone is bagging on the old tractor engine of a flat 6 compared to the more advanced and more powerful turbo 4.
Actually the US grew by 2% per the Porsche press release I read yesterday. The Boxster/Cayman and Cayenne reported negative sales which brought it down considerably. Panameras and Macans were way up. Having lived in Germany for many years there's reasons why sales ebb and flow there. Germans typically keep cars much longer than in the US (upwards of 10 years on average), and products are much more expensive there which has nothing to do with exchange rates. But make no mistake Germans build cars for Germans in Germany, and the US is next in importance as the US will always influence market decisions. I've been to the Porsche factory and have heard the CFO speak about it. You can speculate anything you want based on annual reports and your own logic, right or wrong. Sure other markets are important and China especially economically because they have become are a consumer based nation especially since they can't invest outside China (individuals). Thinking Porsche predicted the non-success of the 718 in the US is utter nonsense. You might want to stick to reciting stats. I added your tractor comment above just because it shows how extremely different any representative from Porsche would express advocacy for the 718. The shame in all this is this infighting among so called enthusiasts is limited almost entirely to English speaking nations. The rest of the world doesn't bicker about this stuff nor do they judge someone for what they own or like. Europeans (not Brits) will show genuine enthusiasm regardless of their own tastes. They're happy if you're happy. I miss living in Germany, and not just because I can take a 2 hour road trip and average 140 mph. It's just nice to be around nice people.

Last edited by MidEngineRules; 01-13-2018 at 02:34 PM. Reason: added "be"
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Old 01-13-2018, 05:16 AM
  #104  
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I'm nice. I just don't like to spend lots of money on 4 cylinder cars. Generally. Although I am kind of excited about the new Saleen S1. We'll see if it really happens. But I am nice. I assure you of that.
I bet they only like 4 cylinder cars in s**t*o*e countries.
(Now I'm going to add a 😋 so everyone will know I'm just having a little fun here at 2 am, and not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or start a fight.)
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Old 01-13-2018, 02:35 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by MidEngineRules View Post
Actually the US grew by 2% per the Porsche press release I read yesterday. The Boxster/Cayman and Cayenne reported negative sales which brought it down considerably. Panameras and Macans were way up. Having lived in Germany for many years there's reasons why sales ebb and flow there. Germans typically keep cars much longer than in the US (upwards of 10 years on average), and products are much more expensive there which has nothing to do with exchange rates. But make no mistake Germans build cars for Germans in Germany, and the US is next in importance as the US will always influence market decisions. I've been to the Porsche factory and have heard the CFO speak about it. You can speculate anything you want based on annual reports and your own logic, right or wrong. Sure other markets are important and China especially economically because they have become are a consumer based nation especially since they can't invest outside China (individuals). Thinking Porsche predicted the non-success of the 718 in the US is utter nonsense. You might want to stick to reciting stats. I added your tractor comment above just because it shows how extremely different any representative from Porsche would express advocacy for the 718. The shame in all this is this infighting among so called enthusiasts is limited almost entirely to English speaking nations. The rest of the world doesn't bicker about this stuff nor do they judge someone for what they own or like. Europeans (not Brits) will show genuine enthusiasm regardless of their own tastes. They're happy if you're happy. I miss living in Germany, and not just because I can take a 2 hour road trip and average 140 mph. It's just nice to around nice people.
You're right, my bad, I was looking at 2016 numbers instead of 2017 : https://rennlist.com/forums/987-981-...s-718-a-7.html

For 2017 yoy growth in the US was only 2%, Germany was actually -3% and there was 10% uptick in China. I like stats. As a for profit company why wouldn't the preferences of the largest single market with triple the rate of growth of any other market not be a primary consideration for product planning, especially when a product takes years to develop and bring to market? I'm not saying the US and Germany aren't also important markets but to call them the most important markets seems to be ignoring the sales and revenue significance of APAC. I have a 981 and like my flat 6 so the tractor comment was a little facetious but IMO comparing the 781 and 981 might be better in the context of global demand and preferences vs purely a domestic perspective where emissions compliance, gas mileage, and displacement based taxes aren't really factors.
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