It's Goodbye to the 991S and Hello to the Cayman R
09-06-2013, 11:29 AM
#17
Fabspeed race exhaust sounds incredible and I love it. However, it does drone loudly from 2-3k RPM. If your R will be a DD and has PDK, it may not be your best option as PDK will want to keep RPMs in the drone zone.
My Spyder came with FVD Brombacher sound version (since replaced with Fabspeed race). I personally could not detect drone (not on mine anyway) and it does have a nice exotic sound above 4k RPM. At idle and lower revs, however, it's relatively quiet and not much louder than stock.
It's all about what you're looking for, I guess. With aftermarket exhausts, loudness seems to be directly related to drone, e.g. Fabspeed, Borla. BTW, I think Remus is another exhaust that has a quieter sound with little to no drone.
My Spyder came with FVD Brombacher sound version (since replaced with Fabspeed race). I personally could not detect drone (not on mine anyway) and it does have a nice exotic sound above 4k RPM. At idle and lower revs, however, it's relatively quiet and not much louder than stock.
It's all about what you're looking for, I guess. With aftermarket exhausts, loudness seems to be directly related to drone, e.g. Fabspeed, Borla. BTW, I think Remus is another exhaust that has a quieter sound with little to no drone.
thanks I love it, too. My friend said, "It looks like a Stormtrooper", which I think has become the cars nickname already.
09-06-2013, 11:52 AM
#18
Forgot to mention that Carnewal (as Gert mentioned above) and Fabspeed Maxflo are also great options. Maxflo still sounds great - much less drone but unfortunately without the Cup exhaust-like sounds at WOT and at the track.
09-06-2013, 10:36 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
I'm 6'4" and the cayman barely fits, but I like the intimate connection. I then added the 996 gt3 buckets, and entering the car now requires a "technique". I only have a 10mi commute, so no worries. As for exhaust, I first tried Remus, but it was too quiet... Tubi is awesome, but some bad drone going up hill at 2-3k, the rest of the time, no drone. However, despite adding "Laguna" tip extension/directors, I still blew a 94.7 on a 90db day!
Enjoy!
Enjoy!
09-07-2013, 03:17 AM
#21
^ This post is why the convertible is the friend of those who can no longer fold themselves like origami, you can enter and exit more upright with no top, I'm 6'1" my own self.
09-11-2013, 06:23 PM
#23
Had an eventful but fun weekend at the track this weekend. Have some initial impressions of the Cayman R and how it compares to the 991 S.
I'll preface everything I'm about to say by admitting that I've always loved 911s since I was young but I went into the Cayman ownership experience with an open mind, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it of course. This isn't a fair fight with the 911 costing significantly more, but I will try to give an unvarnished view of the differences between the two and advantages of each.
The car is completely stock with about 3,000 miles done, so my goal was to treat this as a shakedown weekend before I take it to TWS in a few weeks where the speeds are going to be significantly higher. By the time my group got on the track that morning the ambient temps were already edging past 90F and climbing. It would hit 100F by mid-afternoon, so I figured these would be the most taxing conditions the car would likely see.
I have to say the weekend started on a pretty disappointing note. I started the first session with an instructor check ride and I warned him I hadn't driven this track config (3.1m) since March and that I would be getting familiar with a new car this time out. I started getting up to speed as we went green and some differences were already very evident.
I'll start with the bad and progress to the good.
Brakes
Oh, the brakes... This is by far the most disappointing aspect of the car. It's very disappointing that Porsche would put a brake system this poorly sorted on a car wearing an "R" badge. At first the pedal was reasonably firm and the feedback decent, but by the end of the first session I had already boiled the stock brake fluid! I like to left foot brake in some situations (the PDK makes this very easy), especially in some of the medium fast corners and I trail brake pretty much all the time. The stock brakes were just not tolerant of this at all. After the first 4-5 laps of the session pedal travel started increasing significantly. By the end of the ~25min session the brakes were nearly completely gone and I felt the situation was getting fairly dangerous. I told my instructor I wasn't comfortable and was going to pull the car off early, which I did.
I had the trackside support shop do a quick fluid flush and replaced the stock stuff with Motul RBF600. I went out solo in my next session and the situation improved markedly. Minus the extra 200 lbs of instructor and with the better thermal resistance of the Motul fluid, the brakes were in much better shape. Things still got a little mushy by the end of the session but nothing like the situation in the morning. At the advice of my instructor, I stopped the left foot braking and reduced the areas where I was trail braking and tried to bring my braking points up a little earlier. This definitely helped improve the situation and I think was a good lesson, too: sometimes you have to adjust your driving to work around certain problems the car may be having.
By comparison, albeit in cooler conditions in March and June, the 991S was able to absorb session after session of abuse on the stock pads and fluid with no fade or increased pedal travel at all. I would say feedback and feel are comparable, possibly slightly better in the 991. In short, I had total confidence in the 991's brakes and very little in the CR's.
Advantage: The 991 by a big, big margin.
Engine
The 3.4L and the 3.8L both share the same 9A1 DFI basis, so things were pretty familiar here. Both love to rev, but the 3.8 is very torquey by comparison which gives the 991 a lot more flexibility in terms of what gear you need to be in at any given time. The 3.4L has to be kept on boil at all times to make power, which generally wasn't a problem thanks to the PDK, however this meant the car was always in the 6k+ rev range and more sensitive to engine braking more of the time. I had to be extra smooth coming off the throttle in this car vs. the 911 to avoid upsetting the car's balance on corner entry.
That said, I only missed the torque and extra 70 horses in a few places on this track, most notably in a hairpin where the exit climbs steeply uphill. In the Cayman I just planted my foot flat in 2nd on the exit as the engine struggled to gain revs, whereas in the 911 I had to carefully feed in the power to avoid power-on oversteer as it easily motored up the same hill. Everywhere else I never really felt let down with the 3.4's power delivery, which pulled strongly and smoothly up top. Cresson MSR doesn't really have a long straight, so my impression about this might change once I get to TWS.
That said, you can never have enough power and this car with the 3.8 DFI would be absolutely devastating!
Advantage: The 991, no surprise, but not by as much as you'd think.
Chassis / Handling
This one is a little harder to call. It's like comparing MP3 digital to LP analog. The 911 uses a ton of technology to help pound the track into submission whereas the CR requires a much smoother, steadier hand to perform well. In my first session I thought the CR handled terribly because I kept trying to use all the same track reference points I used in the 911 and drive it like a rear-engined car, ie. trying to "back it in" hard on the brakes and putting the power down with impunity on corner exit. The 991 seems to respond to being slightly overdriven. Driving the CR this way led to pretty bad understeer on entry which would then quickly turn into oversteer / over-rotation and missed apexes as the fronts regained grip and you tried to feed in more power. (I've been driving both cars on P-Zeroes so none of the differences were due to running differing tires.)
Once I smoothed things out in the second session and stopped overdriving the car, I started to get in sync with what the Cayman wanted. Smooth, easy turn-in then led to nice rotation under trail braking and then balanced, throttle-steered exits. In the rare times I got it right, the car was essentially in a very controllable 4-wheel drift on exit. Nice.
I think the main thing I was missing in the Cayman early on was the effects of the Porsche Torque Vectoring system. In the 991 it seemed like it was almost impossible to make it understeer. The PTV system is always there manipulating the brake and e-diff at the rear end of the car helping to tuck in the front-end and get it pointed at the apex. The effects are very noticeable when it's at work and it allows you to lean on the front tires very hard. I think this system is one of the major performance advantages of the new 991 platform compared to the older cars and I'm not sure that it really has gotten the credit for how much easier it makes the car to drive. It really makes the car nearly flawless on turn-in.
The stock suspension tuning of the CR is excellent. The smoother you drive it, the better it responds. It really gives you confidence to push harder and because the limits are a little lower it's somewhat more satisfying. I never once missed the active PASM system from the 991 and never felt like the passive dampers in the CR were having trouble keeping the chassis's motion under control. Really sweet chassis and very satisfying when you get it right. If I had to nitpick, I'd like a little less roll and the front-end definitely needs more negative camber, but then I'd be making it harder to live with as a DD.
Advantage: Cayman for the purity of it's nicely tuned passive suspension and "analog" driving experience.
Steering
Now I know what everyone was talking about when they lamented the passing of the hydraulic Porsche steering racks. The 991's steering is by no means disappointing: it's very accurate, nicely weighted, and never lets you down, but the CR's is downright alive by comparison. When driven harder the 991's steering improves slightly in terms of feel but the CR's "drive by braille" steering is always transmitting feedback, and never in a bothersome way. You always know what's going on with the grip at the front tires. It would be interesting to compare this with the new 991 GT3's steering at some point, which is supposed to be much better.
Advantage: Cayman wins this one in a landslide.
Transmission:
I love a good manual transmission and I'm a passable heel-and-toe'er, but I admit that, with one notable exception, I love the PDK. In Sport + modes both transmissions behave very similarly; throttle response is reasonably sharp in both cars. The CR's PDK has to work a little harder on both the road and track to keep the engine in the power band, as mentioned above. Both exhibit the annoying automatic transmission-like "kick down" behavior when you purposely short shift and apply full throttle, even in manual mode. But that's about the only bad thing I can say about it. Both are almost psychic when left in full auto mode and even seem to get better as the session goes on, like it has a learning algorithm programmed in. Maybe it does or maybe I'm just imagining things.
I don't use Launch Control very often, but the CR's clutch drop is more brutal compared to the 991s. The CR's lands hard enough to bark the rear tires, while the 991s just kind of bogs slightly and goes if the tires are warmed up, otherwise there might be some axle tramp as the rear's try to hook up if they're not. Fun but attracts all kinds of the wrong attention on the street. Basically it's a toy for entertaining your passengers in the right environment.
On the street the 991's shifting behavior in full-auto, normal mode might be a little more refined and smooth.
With all of the above said, I might now see how the 6MT would be more in character for the CR and the PDK more in tune with the 991. Can't go wrong with either, I'd say.
Advantage: draw
Touring / Misc
-The CR actually makes a capable little tourer with the front and rear storage areas. I didn't find the ride or NVH tiring at all.
-The manual adjustable seats in the CR are very, very good. I actually prefer them to the Sport Seats (not the plus version) in the 991, which surprised me. They have wider seat cushions, better bolstering, and fit me like a glove once I got them dialed in. I didn't stop for the entire 3.5 hour drive back from the track and felt very fresh once I arrived. YMMV.
-PCM 3.0 in the Cayman is no match for the newer system in the 991. I definitely missed the satellite radio and audio over BT functionality. The screen looks low-res in the CR compared to the 991. In fact, everything about the interior and electronics of the CR feels dated in comparison, however it does feel very well screwed together. The audio quality of the Bose system in the CR seems better than the one in the 991, too, probably because I could crank it nice and loud without gritting my teeth when the door panels in my early build 991 started buzzing and rattling. Spotify running on my iPhone made a nice pinch hitter in place of satellite radio, too.
-Both attract attention on the street, but I seem to catch more people stealing glances at the CR. I'm assuming this is because of the white paint / black wheels combo and retro Porsche logo stripe down the side. Otherwise it would probably be just "another" Cayman. If you're craving more attention buy a Ferrari, I guess.
Conclusion
Both are absolutely great cars. Both will get you to and from the track in reasonable comfort. The 991 is essentially track ready right out of the box in most aspects, however, the Cayman R needs some work to really be hardened enough for track duty. That's the frustrating thing: it's hard to get over the feeling that Porsche is intentionally hobbling the Cayman, even in R form, to keep it just off the 911's heels.
I'm going to approach the brake problem incrementally. I've already got Pagid yellows on the way in time for TWS. Next step would be steel braided lines. If they're still lacking I'll go with larger rotors which should help with heat dissipation.
I'll also likely be adding the RSS LCAs and putting a more aggressive street / track alignment on the car to get more -ve camber on the front end.
At some point I'll get a set of track wheels and some nice R-comps.
Not even going to think about that 3.8L swap. Nope, not going to do it...
The slippery slope begins.
I'll preface everything I'm about to say by admitting that I've always loved 911s since I was young but I went into the Cayman ownership experience with an open mind, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it of course. This isn't a fair fight with the 911 costing significantly more, but I will try to give an unvarnished view of the differences between the two and advantages of each.
The car is completely stock with about 3,000 miles done, so my goal was to treat this as a shakedown weekend before I take it to TWS in a few weeks where the speeds are going to be significantly higher. By the time my group got on the track that morning the ambient temps were already edging past 90F and climbing. It would hit 100F by mid-afternoon, so I figured these would be the most taxing conditions the car would likely see.
I have to say the weekend started on a pretty disappointing note. I started the first session with an instructor check ride and I warned him I hadn't driven this track config (3.1m) since March and that I would be getting familiar with a new car this time out. I started getting up to speed as we went green and some differences were already very evident.
I'll start with the bad and progress to the good.
Brakes
Oh, the brakes... This is by far the most disappointing aspect of the car. It's very disappointing that Porsche would put a brake system this poorly sorted on a car wearing an "R" badge. At first the pedal was reasonably firm and the feedback decent, but by the end of the first session I had already boiled the stock brake fluid! I like to left foot brake in some situations (the PDK makes this very easy), especially in some of the medium fast corners and I trail brake pretty much all the time. The stock brakes were just not tolerant of this at all. After the first 4-5 laps of the session pedal travel started increasing significantly. By the end of the ~25min session the brakes were nearly completely gone and I felt the situation was getting fairly dangerous. I told my instructor I wasn't comfortable and was going to pull the car off early, which I did.
I had the trackside support shop do a quick fluid flush and replaced the stock stuff with Motul RBF600. I went out solo in my next session and the situation improved markedly. Minus the extra 200 lbs of instructor and with the better thermal resistance of the Motul fluid, the brakes were in much better shape. Things still got a little mushy by the end of the session but nothing like the situation in the morning. At the advice of my instructor, I stopped the left foot braking and reduced the areas where I was trail braking and tried to bring my braking points up a little earlier. This definitely helped improve the situation and I think was a good lesson, too: sometimes you have to adjust your driving to work around certain problems the car may be having.
By comparison, albeit in cooler conditions in March and June, the 991S was able to absorb session after session of abuse on the stock pads and fluid with no fade or increased pedal travel at all. I would say feedback and feel are comparable, possibly slightly better in the 991. In short, I had total confidence in the 991's brakes and very little in the CR's.
Advantage: The 991 by a big, big margin.
Engine
The 3.4L and the 3.8L both share the same 9A1 DFI basis, so things were pretty familiar here. Both love to rev, but the 3.8 is very torquey by comparison which gives the 991 a lot more flexibility in terms of what gear you need to be in at any given time. The 3.4L has to be kept on boil at all times to make power, which generally wasn't a problem thanks to the PDK, however this meant the car was always in the 6k+ rev range and more sensitive to engine braking more of the time. I had to be extra smooth coming off the throttle in this car vs. the 911 to avoid upsetting the car's balance on corner entry.
That said, I only missed the torque and extra 70 horses in a few places on this track, most notably in a hairpin where the exit climbs steeply uphill. In the Cayman I just planted my foot flat in 2nd on the exit as the engine struggled to gain revs, whereas in the 911 I had to carefully feed in the power to avoid power-on oversteer as it easily motored up the same hill. Everywhere else I never really felt let down with the 3.4's power delivery, which pulled strongly and smoothly up top. Cresson MSR doesn't really have a long straight, so my impression about this might change once I get to TWS.
That said, you can never have enough power and this car with the 3.8 DFI would be absolutely devastating!
Advantage: The 991, no surprise, but not by as much as you'd think.
Chassis / Handling
This one is a little harder to call. It's like comparing MP3 digital to LP analog. The 911 uses a ton of technology to help pound the track into submission whereas the CR requires a much smoother, steadier hand to perform well. In my first session I thought the CR handled terribly because I kept trying to use all the same track reference points I used in the 911 and drive it like a rear-engined car, ie. trying to "back it in" hard on the brakes and putting the power down with impunity on corner exit. The 991 seems to respond to being slightly overdriven. Driving the CR this way led to pretty bad understeer on entry which would then quickly turn into oversteer / over-rotation and missed apexes as the fronts regained grip and you tried to feed in more power. (I've been driving both cars on P-Zeroes so none of the differences were due to running differing tires.)
Once I smoothed things out in the second session and stopped overdriving the car, I started to get in sync with what the Cayman wanted. Smooth, easy turn-in then led to nice rotation under trail braking and then balanced, throttle-steered exits. In the rare times I got it right, the car was essentially in a very controllable 4-wheel drift on exit. Nice.
I think the main thing I was missing in the Cayman early on was the effects of the Porsche Torque Vectoring system. In the 991 it seemed like it was almost impossible to make it understeer. The PTV system is always there manipulating the brake and e-diff at the rear end of the car helping to tuck in the front-end and get it pointed at the apex. The effects are very noticeable when it's at work and it allows you to lean on the front tires very hard. I think this system is one of the major performance advantages of the new 991 platform compared to the older cars and I'm not sure that it really has gotten the credit for how much easier it makes the car to drive. It really makes the car nearly flawless on turn-in.
The stock suspension tuning of the CR is excellent. The smoother you drive it, the better it responds. It really gives you confidence to push harder and because the limits are a little lower it's somewhat more satisfying. I never once missed the active PASM system from the 991 and never felt like the passive dampers in the CR were having trouble keeping the chassis's motion under control. Really sweet chassis and very satisfying when you get it right. If I had to nitpick, I'd like a little less roll and the front-end definitely needs more negative camber, but then I'd be making it harder to live with as a DD.
Advantage: Cayman for the purity of it's nicely tuned passive suspension and "analog" driving experience.
Steering
Now I know what everyone was talking about when they lamented the passing of the hydraulic Porsche steering racks. The 991's steering is by no means disappointing: it's very accurate, nicely weighted, and never lets you down, but the CR's is downright alive by comparison. When driven harder the 991's steering improves slightly in terms of feel but the CR's "drive by braille" steering is always transmitting feedback, and never in a bothersome way. You always know what's going on with the grip at the front tires. It would be interesting to compare this with the new 991 GT3's steering at some point, which is supposed to be much better.
Advantage: Cayman wins this one in a landslide.
Transmission:
I love a good manual transmission and I'm a passable heel-and-toe'er, but I admit that, with one notable exception, I love the PDK. In Sport + modes both transmissions behave very similarly; throttle response is reasonably sharp in both cars. The CR's PDK has to work a little harder on both the road and track to keep the engine in the power band, as mentioned above. Both exhibit the annoying automatic transmission-like "kick down" behavior when you purposely short shift and apply full throttle, even in manual mode. But that's about the only bad thing I can say about it. Both are almost psychic when left in full auto mode and even seem to get better as the session goes on, like it has a learning algorithm programmed in. Maybe it does or maybe I'm just imagining things.
I don't use Launch Control very often, but the CR's clutch drop is more brutal compared to the 991s. The CR's lands hard enough to bark the rear tires, while the 991s just kind of bogs slightly and goes if the tires are warmed up, otherwise there might be some axle tramp as the rear's try to hook up if they're not. Fun but attracts all kinds of the wrong attention on the street. Basically it's a toy for entertaining your passengers in the right environment.
On the street the 991's shifting behavior in full-auto, normal mode might be a little more refined and smooth.
With all of the above said, I might now see how the 6MT would be more in character for the CR and the PDK more in tune with the 991. Can't go wrong with either, I'd say.
Advantage: draw
Touring / Misc
-The CR actually makes a capable little tourer with the front and rear storage areas. I didn't find the ride or NVH tiring at all.
-The manual adjustable seats in the CR are very, very good. I actually prefer them to the Sport Seats (not the plus version) in the 991, which surprised me. They have wider seat cushions, better bolstering, and fit me like a glove once I got them dialed in. I didn't stop for the entire 3.5 hour drive back from the track and felt very fresh once I arrived. YMMV.
-PCM 3.0 in the Cayman is no match for the newer system in the 991. I definitely missed the satellite radio and audio over BT functionality. The screen looks low-res in the CR compared to the 991. In fact, everything about the interior and electronics of the CR feels dated in comparison, however it does feel very well screwed together. The audio quality of the Bose system in the CR seems better than the one in the 991, too, probably because I could crank it nice and loud without gritting my teeth when the door panels in my early build 991 started buzzing and rattling. Spotify running on my iPhone made a nice pinch hitter in place of satellite radio, too.
-Both attract attention on the street, but I seem to catch more people stealing glances at the CR. I'm assuming this is because of the white paint / black wheels combo and retro Porsche logo stripe down the side. Otherwise it would probably be just "another" Cayman. If you're craving more attention buy a Ferrari, I guess.
Conclusion
Both are absolutely great cars. Both will get you to and from the track in reasonable comfort. The 991 is essentially track ready right out of the box in most aspects, however, the Cayman R needs some work to really be hardened enough for track duty. That's the frustrating thing: it's hard to get over the feeling that Porsche is intentionally hobbling the Cayman, even in R form, to keep it just off the 911's heels.
I'm going to approach the brake problem incrementally. I've already got Pagid yellows on the way in time for TWS. Next step would be steel braided lines. If they're still lacking I'll go with larger rotors which should help with heat dissipation.
I'll also likely be adding the RSS LCAs and putting a more aggressive street / track alignment on the car to get more -ve camber on the front end.
At some point I'll get a set of track wheels and some nice R-comps.
Not even going to think about that 3.8L swap. Nope, not going to do it...
The slippery slope begins.
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tcal765 (11-21-2020)
09-11-2013, 07:21 PM
#24
Is it possible the way you drove the car overheated the brakes and effected the brake fade? Perhaps the better later laps were from familiarity and brand new fluid. I have never read anyone saying the Boxster S brembo brakes were awful. Anyhow, at least it's an easy DIY mod.
09-11-2013, 08:07 PM
#25
Interesting review.
987 brake pedals are notorious for being mushy. Even without boiling the brake fluid, it can get very soft/mushy and the travel may become far indeed. If you're tracking HARD on stock pads in hot weather.... well, yeah, I'd been surprised if you said you DIDN'T have problems.
Stock pads are relatively crap and will overheat your brakes on the track.
Pagid Yellows + Motul 600 and you'll be fine. Couple of things. Get GT3 front brake ducts - very easy and cheap mod ($20-30). There's also info out there on rear brake ducting in 987s. If you're still not satisfied with the brake pedal feel, get a GT3 MC. That will firm things up for sure.
Genuine question with NO offense intended whatsoever: what is your track experience like? Certain things make it sound like you may be relatively new (having an instructor, tracking on stock pads, "OK heel-and-toe driver", etc.) while other things make it sound like you may be pretty experienced (left foot braking, trail braking, 4-wheel drift on track out). Just curious.
987 brake pedals are notorious for being mushy. Even without boiling the brake fluid, it can get very soft/mushy and the travel may become far indeed. If you're tracking HARD on stock pads in hot weather.... well, yeah, I'd been surprised if you said you DIDN'T have problems.
Stock pads are relatively crap and will overheat your brakes on the track.
Pagid Yellows + Motul 600 and you'll be fine. Couple of things. Get GT3 front brake ducts - very easy and cheap mod ($20-30). There's also info out there on rear brake ducting in 987s. If you're still not satisfied with the brake pedal feel, get a GT3 MC. That will firm things up for sure.
Genuine question with NO offense intended whatsoever: what is your track experience like? Certain things make it sound like you may be relatively new (having an instructor, tracking on stock pads, "OK heel-and-toe driver", etc.) while other things make it sound like you may be pretty experienced (left foot braking, trail braking, 4-wheel drift on track out). Just curious.
09-11-2013, 08:33 PM
#26
Is it possible the way you drove the car overheated the brakes and effected the brake fade? Perhaps the better later laps were from familiarity and brand new fluid. I have never read anyone saying the Boxster S brembo brakes were awful. Anyhow, at least it's an easy DIY mod.
Interesting review.
987 brake pedals are notorious for being mushy. Even without boiling the brake fluid, it can get very soft/mushy and the travel may become far indeed. If you're tracking HARD on stock pads in hot weather.... well, yeah, I'd been surprised if you said you DIDN'T have problems.
Stock pads are relatively crap and will overheat your brakes on the track.
Pagid Yellows + Motul 600 and you'll be fine. Couple of things. Get GT3 front brake ducts - very easy and cheap mod ($20-30). There's also info out there on rear brake ducting in 987s. If you're still not satisfied with the brake pedal feel, get a GT3 MC. That will firm things up for sure.
Genuine question with NO offense intended whatsoever: what is your track experience like? Certain things make it sound like you may be relatively new (having an instructor, tracking on stock pads, "OK heel-and-toe driver", etc.) while other things make it sound like you may be pretty experienced (left foot braking, trail braking, 4-wheel drift on track out). Just curious.
987 brake pedals are notorious for being mushy. Even without boiling the brake fluid, it can get very soft/mushy and the travel may become far indeed. If you're tracking HARD on stock pads in hot weather.... well, yeah, I'd been surprised if you said you DIDN'T have problems.
Stock pads are relatively crap and will overheat your brakes on the track.
Pagid Yellows + Motul 600 and you'll be fine. Couple of things. Get GT3 front brake ducts - very easy and cheap mod ($20-30). There's also info out there on rear brake ducting in 987s. If you're still not satisfied with the brake pedal feel, get a GT3 MC. That will firm things up for sure.
Genuine question with NO offense intended whatsoever: what is your track experience like? Certain things make it sound like you may be relatively new (having an instructor, tracking on stock pads, "OK heel-and-toe driver", etc.) while other things make it sound like you may be pretty experienced (left foot braking, trail braking, 4-wheel drift on track out). Just curious.
No offense taken by the experience question.
I'm kind of advanced intermediate I'd say. I've just moved back to the US after 10 years of living in a large city where it's notoriously difficult to own a car, so I haven't been driving for a long time. I made up for that by spending a lot of time at one of the local kart tracks while I was there. I also tracked my motorcycle quite a bit and spent time in a track prepped Lotus on a nearby F1 circuit with some professional instruction. Track days there are nothing like the very controlled DEs are here--they're pretty much wide open, run what ya brung--so I'm establishing a track record with a local organization here. I've only run 3 events with them so they've got me in their 3rd out of 4 levels group (yellow) and with an instructor from time to time to check in. I have no problems with it and I've actually learned quite a lot from their instructors.Thanks for the tip on the GT3 brake ducts btw. Is there an online source where it's easy to get those from?
Edit: nevermind, found them on suncoast..thx
Last edited by Cogito_Ergo_Zoom; 09-11-2013 at 08:52 PM.
09-11-2013, 09:08 PM
#27
Experience-wise, it sounds like you're very well on your way and - as I suspected - just being modest (a trait we could all learn from these days!! 
).
With your skill level and driving style, CR brakes can certainly be the Achilles' heel. Pagid Yellows and Motul RBF600 will definitely help. GT3 brake ducts are a big help as well. These are the sources where I've gotten them from in the past (in different cars). Other places may or may not be cheaper.
http://www.ecstuning.com/Porsche-201...ing/ES2526435/
http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...y_Code=987c2sp
Unfortunately, 987s have no rear brake ducts. If the mod bug hits you, there are some options however:
https://rennlist.com/forums/987-981-...-for-987s.html
The new 981s come with rear brake ducts but others have reported that those will not fit on 987s. Apparently they will hit/rub on the headers. However, I'm sure they can be modified to fit...
On the subject of SS brake lines, they're a pretty popular mod that many recommend. However, it's also pertinent to remember that GT3s and Cup cars come with..... rubber brake lines. From what I hear, SS brake lines aren't necessary unless the rubber lines are 4-5 years old (give or take), are reaching the end of their lives, and are subject to expansion when brake fluid gets very hot.... YMMV, obviously. FWIW, I had SS brake lines installed on a previous car. No difference in feel whatsoever that I could detect.
Forgot to mention the camber setting. As you already mentioned, RSS LCAs are a great mod. Front negative camber that you can achieve on stock CR suspension is embarrassingly sad (-0.8 to -1.2). You'll be able to achieve over -2.5 with LCAs. I wouldn't worry about street-ability. My Spyder has -2.4 camber front & rear (rear on stock suspension without a need for aftermarket LCAs) and it drives just fine on the street. (but the inside edge of tires may wear more quickly)
Good luck, and good to have you here.
).With your skill level and driving style, CR brakes can certainly be the Achilles' heel. Pagid Yellows and Motul RBF600 will definitely help. GT3 brake ducts are a big help as well. These are the sources where I've gotten them from in the past (in different cars). Other places may or may not be cheaper.
http://www.ecstuning.com/Porsche-201...ing/ES2526435/
http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...y_Code=987c2sp
Unfortunately, 987s have no rear brake ducts. If the mod bug hits you, there are some options however:
https://rennlist.com/forums/987-981-...-for-987s.html
The new 981s come with rear brake ducts but others have reported that those will not fit on 987s. Apparently they will hit/rub on the headers. However, I'm sure they can be modified to fit...
On the subject of SS brake lines, they're a pretty popular mod that many recommend. However, it's also pertinent to remember that GT3s and Cup cars come with..... rubber brake lines. From what I hear, SS brake lines aren't necessary unless the rubber lines are 4-5 years old (give or take), are reaching the end of their lives, and are subject to expansion when brake fluid gets very hot.... YMMV, obviously. FWIW, I had SS brake lines installed on a previous car. No difference in feel whatsoever that I could detect.
Forgot to mention the camber setting. As you already mentioned, RSS LCAs are a great mod. Front negative camber that you can achieve on stock CR suspension is embarrassingly sad (-0.8 to -1.2). You'll be able to achieve over -2.5 with LCAs. I wouldn't worry about street-ability. My Spyder has -2.4 camber front & rear (rear on stock suspension without a need for aftermarket LCAs) and it drives just fine on the street. (but the inside edge of tires may wear more quickly)
Good luck, and good to have you here.
09-11-2013, 09:24 PM
#28
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Great write up and comparison, thank you!
Some good advice given on the brakes. I don't track my Spyder but I also find the brakes to be completely inadequate when it comes to how they feel when under hard use.
Some good advice given on the brakes. I don't track my Spyder but I also find the brakes to be completely inadequate when it comes to how they feel when under hard use.
09-12-2013, 02:34 PM
#29
Congrats on the R, it's a great dual purpose street/track car.
Regarding your exhaust considerations, I've owned most of them on my two Caymans,
and for a DD with no drone/excessive noise and a reasonable price, go Carnewal.
Cantrell Motorsports up in Washington can do the modification on your shipped exhaust
and it ends up sounding very much like the sport exhaust in a lighter package.
That also means it will pass restrictive track noise req. unlike the Fab. Race etc.
Regarding your exhaust considerations, I've owned most of them on my two Caymans,
and for a DD with no drone/excessive noise and a reasonable price, go Carnewal.
Cantrell Motorsports up in Washington can do the modification on your shipped exhaust
and it ends up sounding very much like the sport exhaust in a lighter package.
That also means it will pass restrictive track noise req. unlike the Fab. Race etc.
09-12-2013, 04:19 PM
#30
Experience-wise, it sounds like you're very well on your way and - as I suspected - just being modest (a trait we could all learn from these days!! ).
With your skill level and driving style, CR brakes can certainly be the Achilles' heel. Pagid Yellows and Motul RBF600 will definitely help. GT3 brake ducts are a big help as well. These are the sources where I've gotten them from in the past (in different cars). Other places may or may not be cheaper.
http://www.ecstuning.com/Porsche-201...ing/ES2526435/
http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...y_Code=987c2sp
Unfortunately, 987s have no rear brake ducts. If the mod bug hits you, there are some options however:
https://rennlist.com/forums/987-981-...-for-987s.html
The new 981s come with rear brake ducts but others have reported that those will not fit on 987s. Apparently they will hit/rub on the headers. However, I'm sure they can be modified to fit...
On the subject of SS brake lines, they're a pretty popular mod that many recommend. However, it's also pertinent to remember that GT3s and Cup cars come with..... rubber brake lines. From what I hear, SS brake lines aren't necessary unless the rubber lines are 4-5 years old (give or take), are reaching the end of their lives, and are subject to expansion when brake fluid gets very hot.... YMMV, obviously. FWIW, I had SS brake lines installed on a previous car. No difference in feel whatsoever that I could detect.
Forgot to mention the camber setting. As you already mentioned, RSS LCAs are a great mod. Front negative camber that you can achieve on stock CR suspension is embarrassingly sad (-0.8 to -1.2). You'll be able to achieve over -2.5 with LCAs. I wouldn't worry about street-ability. My Spyder has -2.4 camber front & rear (rear on stock suspension without a need for aftermarket LCAs) and it drives just fine on the street. (but the inside edge of tires may wear more quickly)
Good luck, and good to have you here.
).With your skill level and driving style, CR brakes can certainly be the Achilles' heel. Pagid Yellows and Motul RBF600 will definitely help. GT3 brake ducts are a big help as well. These are the sources where I've gotten them from in the past (in different cars). Other places may or may not be cheaper.
http://www.ecstuning.com/Porsche-201...ing/ES2526435/
http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...y_Code=987c2sp
Unfortunately, 987s have no rear brake ducts. If the mod bug hits you, there are some options however:
https://rennlist.com/forums/987-981-...-for-987s.html
The new 981s come with rear brake ducts but others have reported that those will not fit on 987s. Apparently they will hit/rub on the headers. However, I'm sure they can be modified to fit...
On the subject of SS brake lines, they're a pretty popular mod that many recommend. However, it's also pertinent to remember that GT3s and Cup cars come with..... rubber brake lines. From what I hear, SS brake lines aren't necessary unless the rubber lines are 4-5 years old (give or take), are reaching the end of their lives, and are subject to expansion when brake fluid gets very hot.... YMMV, obviously. FWIW, I had SS brake lines installed on a previous car. No difference in feel whatsoever that I could detect.
Forgot to mention the camber setting. As you already mentioned, RSS LCAs are a great mod. Front negative camber that you can achieve on stock CR suspension is embarrassingly sad (-0.8 to -1.2). You'll be able to achieve over -2.5 with LCAs. I wouldn't worry about street-ability. My Spyder has -2.4 camber front & rear (rear on stock suspension without a need for aftermarket LCAs) and it drives just fine on the street. (but the inside edge of tires may wear more quickly)
Good luck, and good to have you here.
Congrats on the R, it's a great dual purpose street/track car.
Regarding your exhaust considerations, I've owned most of them on my two Caymans,
and for a DD with no drone/excessive noise and a reasonable price, go Carnewal.
Cantrell Motorsports up in Washington can do the modification on your shipped exhaust
and it ends up sounding very much like the sport exhaust in a lighter package.
That also means it will pass restrictive track noise req. unlike the Fab. Race etc.
Regarding your exhaust considerations, I've owned most of them on my two Caymans,
and for a DD with no drone/excessive noise and a reasonable price, go Carnewal.
Cantrell Motorsports up in Washington can do the modification on your shipped exhaust
and it ends up sounding very much like the sport exhaust in a lighter package.
That also means it will pass restrictive track noise req. unlike the Fab. Race etc.