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Cayman 981s vs. 718

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Old 01-05-2018, 03:06 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Lapis View Post


I donít recall the 718 Cayman S that I drove having turbo lag, per se, but different style of power delivery, like all turbo charged cars have, vs NA.

I didnít feel any handling improvements on the new 718 Cayman S that I drove (again: manual, Sport suspension, Sport Chrono) vs my past 981-based cars (981 Boxster S with base suspension, GT4), nor vs the 981 Spyder I drove immediately afterwards and bought the same day. But then again, except for the 981 Boxster S, those other two 981-based cars one would expect to outperform a 718 Cayman S in the handling Dept. Also note that the 718 Cayman S had its standard tires vs nearly new Trofeo R tires on the 981 Spyder that I drove and bought and Michelin Cup 2 on GT4. The tires probably have a bigger impact on handling feel than whatever improvements the 718 may have in the suspension Dept.

To me, the biggest difference by far is the feel and sound of the engine. Of course itís subjective whether one prefers NA 6 over turbo 4 in this regard. Having become accustomed to my previous flat 6 NA P-cars, and frankly having enjoyed the sound and feel of those carsí engines and power delivery style as one of the best things about those cars, Iím in the flat 6 NA camp.

Thatís not to say Iím against turbos in principle. Theyíre great in my daily driver cars. And theyíre undisputed when it comes to flat out performance and probably efficiency potential too. But thatís not what a small sports car is about, IMO. Itís about feeling.

To to sum it up, after driving the new 718 Cayman S, which in most ways except for engine is very similar to a 981 platform with comparable options, the first sound that came out of me when pulling away in the 981 Spyder was ďAhhh, thank God.Ē
Clearly I'm a 718 advocate, but I completely agree that you own a fabulous car. Very few would prefer the sounds of a 718 vs. a 981 spyder. But this is what you wrote " long story short, donít buy the 718 turbo 4. Itís a low point for Porsche." You standing by this statement? Doesn't sound like it from your new post.
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Old 01-05-2018, 11:49 AM
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Sound is a large emotive factor for many people buying a sports car, and although a 718 is faster than a 981, it will never be the fastest for the dollar spent - so if it's speed one is after, look elsewhere. With that in mind, the 718 never sounds as bad as any F80 series M3/4, and many still go gaga over that car. As they say, different strokes...

To me, what matters most is immediacy of throttle response - and that's where turbo ie. 718 till date will ALWAYS fall short.
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by errant View Post
To me, what matters most is immediacy of throttle response - and that's where turbo ie. 718 till date will ALWAYS fall short.
If you are in the wrong gear, you are right. But that's the same for the NA cars as well. A 718 S with VTG has excellent throttle response.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:01 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by MidEngineRules View Post
- he rear end of the 718 is better looking than the 981 especially in terms of rear spoiler integration and taillights.

Great post, but I assume you accidentally transposed 718 and 981 in that particular sentence, right? It's always going to be a subjective thing, but IMO it's tough to make the case that the 718 rear-end treatment was an improvement in any respect. Like the rest of the car, it was an exercise in fixing things that weren't broken. (Of course, stalwart 987 devotees will say the same of the 981...)



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Old 01-05-2018, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Noah Fect View Post



Great post, but I assume you accidentally transposed 718 and 981 in that particular sentence, right? It's always going to be a subjective thing, but IMO it's tough to make the case that the 718 rear-end treatment was an improvement in any respect. Like the rest of the car, it was an exercise in fixing things that weren't broken. (Of course, stalwart 987 devotees will say the same of the 981...)



I think the 718 from the rear is a bit better than the typical 981, not the 981 Spyder/GT4 or GTS. I never liked the little spoiler on the normal 981 or rear bumper lines so much. I think Porsche did a much better job with the rear of the 987.
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Old 01-06-2018, 06:28 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by pc4ever View Post
If you are in the wrong gear, you are right. But that's the same for the NA cars as well. A 718 S with VTG has excellent throttle response.
Nothing to do with which gear you're in.

Have driven both extensively, the 718S does have very good response for a turbo car, don't get me wrong - but there's nothing like the crispness of touching an NA pedal.

718S is a very fast car, but throttle sensitivity will never compare. That said, and as many have highlighted, it does alot of things better than 981; throttle response just isn't one of them.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by errant View Post
Nothing to do with which gear you're in.

Have driven both extensively, the 718S does have very good response for a turbo car, don't get me wrong - but there's nothing like the crispness of touching an NA pedal.

718S is a very fast car, but throttle sensitivity will never compare. That said, and as many have highlighted, it does alot of things better than 981; throttle response just isn't one of them.
What I have found with small displacement turbo cars (like my daily driver) is that I will drive them normally slightly faster than my NA Porsche because they require less throttle to maneuver city traffic and loops, etc. I find myself commuting at slightly higher speeds which isn't necessarily a good thing. I think this is what people like ... that feeling the turbo car is quicker because it's easier to accelerate with little effort. I have an Escort radar detector that I keep in the daily. I don't use one in the Porsche because either I'm more self-constrained or more in control of every mph. That's linear power versus boost. Neither car is necessarily any quicker to a single driver as the individual driver controls acceleration and speed and can decide to or not drive fast or slow. The only driver you're racing is yourself. It comes down to how you like power delivery. Turbos give you the ability to drive at very low rpms and still zip along quite nicely. With a NA motor, you're going to have to work a little harder, but that also gives you the chance to hear the motor which is rewarding. I'm an older driver and prefer to be in control of all that I'm doing and don't mind having to use a little more motor for the sake of driving enjoyment. Ultimately in the debate of the 981 versus 718 I think there's more reward and enjoyment with the 981. The only sense it doesn't tick as well is that effortless pull at low rpms. The 3.4 is a very rewarding motor to let rip a bit. Your fuel economy may suffer a tad but this is a toy, right?

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Old 01-06-2018, 04:20 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by terbiumactivated View Post
I have no doubt the car is a screamer. I'm not necessarily opposed to four cylinder cars but the price point? Makes my car seem like a unique bargain.
That's the biggest problem with the 718 from my perspective. A decently equipped 718 Boxster S will sticker in the low $80Ks, and that's a lot of money to spend for a 4 cyl engine. The 718's exhaust sound is also disappointing, but there's only so much that can be done with a turbo 4 cyl engine, I know that there are some who post that sound is unimportant to them, but I'd say they are in the minority for sports car buyers, given the significant dollars Porsche invests in its exhaust sound. Ferrari is another company that spends a lot of money on getting their unique exhaust sound. Getting a car to sound loud is quite easy; any old rusted out muffler will make that car loud. But getting that perfect exhaust pitch is rarely achieved.
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Old 01-06-2018, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by fast1 View Post
A decently equipped 718 Boxster S will sticker in the low $80Ks, and that's a lot of money to spend for a 4 cyl engine.
Maybe because I'm becoming an old fart I do like a little bit of luxury/refinement even with this platform. I've had full leather interiors in all 3 of my Boxsters (2 red, 1 black). When I price out a 718S the way I'd want it it's over $100k, and that's not going crazy with it. That's more than I spent on my '16 Boxster Spyder, which is nuts. Pay more get less. Plus a 718 won't hold its value comparatively. But my ultimate beef with the 718 is no X73 sport suspension option. I've had 2 987s with X73 and the '16 Spyder of course. It makes such a huge difference in handling/cornering and road feel in general, which is a major reason to choose this platform. These cars are all about the driving dynamic. No X73 is no bueno. If Porsche is smart they'll offer a "sport" suspension option for the 718.2. And bring back Speed Yellow!
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Old 01-06-2018, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MidEngineRules View Post
What I have found with small displacement turbo cars (like my daily driver) is that I will drive them normally slightly faster than my NA Porsche because they require less throttle to maneuver city traffic and loops, etc. I find myself commuting at slightly higher speeds which isn't necessarily a good thing. I think this is what people like ... that feeling the turbo car is quicker because it's easier to accelerate with little effort. I have an Escort radar detector that I keep in the daily. I don't use one in the Porsche because either I'm more self-constrained or more in control of every mph. That's linear power versus boost. Neither car is necessarily any quicker to a single driver as the individual driver controls acceleration and speed and can decide to or not drive fast or slow. The only driver you're racing is yourself. It comes down to how you like power delivery. Turbos give you the ability to drive at very low rpms and still zip along quite nicely. With a NA motor, you're going to have to work a little harder, but that also gives you the chance to hear the motor which is rewarding. I'm an older driver and prefer to be in control of all that I'm doing and don't mind having to use a little more motor for the sake of driving enjoyment. Ultimately in the debate of the 981 versus 718 I think there's more reward and enjoyment with the 981. The only sense it doesn't tick as well is that effortless pull at low rpms. The 3.4 is a very rewarding motor to let rip a bit. Your fuel economy may suffer a tad but this is a toy, right?
Exactly. I don't want to be going fast on public roads, I want to be exercising my motor, working to connect with the car, hearing it scream, while not being an absolute nuisance and having a huge smile across my face. The 3.4 is a marvel at achieving this. Going fast at low RPM's is a bore, and actually frustrating when you have a glorious soundtrack behind you that you aren't getting benefit out of. My preferred method of spirited driving is keeping RPM's up, ripping then rapid shifting, rinse, repeat. Like you said, that's what makes it feel like a "toy."
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Old 01-07-2018, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Exactly. I don't want to be going fast on public roads, I want to be exercising my motor, working to connect with the car, hearing it scream, while not being an absolute nuisance and having a huge smile across my face. The 3.4 is a marvel at achieving this. Going fast at low RPM's is a bore, and actually frustrating when you have a glorious soundtrack behind you that you aren't getting benefit out of. My preferred method of spirited driving is keeping RPM's up, ripping then rapid shifting, rinse, repeat. Like you said, that's what makes it feel like a "toy."
I don't agree. It isn't a question (and its not the reality in my case) of going fast on public roads, it's about having the instantaneous power to react to common traffic issues. I don't drive faster in my 718S than I did in my 981 GTS, but I really appreciate the ability to quickly accelerate if the situation requires it, without waiting for the engine to hit 4000 RPM. I think of torque as a safety feature here on the crazy roads in NJ.

That said, there are times when hearing the engine scream is great fun, but sunny, traffic-free days on winding roads represents about 10% the time I get to use my car.
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Old 01-07-2018, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by pc4ever View Post
I don't agree. It isn't a question (and its not the reality in my case) of going fast on public roads, it's about having the instantaneous power to react to common traffic issues. I don't drive faster in my 718S than I did in my 981 GTS, but I really appreciate the ability to quickly accelerate if the situation requires it, without waiting for the engine to hit 4000 RPM. I think of torque as a safety feature here on the crazy roads in NJ.

That said, there are times when hearing the engine scream is great fun, but sunny, traffic-free days on winding roads represents about 10% the time I get to use my car.
That explains a lot of our differences. My car is primarily used for pleasure (windy roads, weekend fun). Thus, revving it up to 4K+ RPM's to squeeze the best out of it is the entire point. Nothing more frustrating and boring in a real world fun-driving environment imo than getting to high speeds at super low RPM's. When you have a motor that sounds great, to me you get the best of all worlds when you "need" to rev it out to really feel it. It's more challenging, rewarding and visceral. As it is, on my 3.4 Carrera, if I redline second, I'm going into third at about 80 MPH. Too much for street driving itself.

What I really wish we had is closer gear ratios in the lower gears, as I find ultimate fun in revving it out then rapid-shifting, downshifting, rinsing, repeating.
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Old 01-07-2018, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
It's more challenging, rewarding and visceral.
Here's another difference - compared to my 991 Turbo S, my 718 Boxster S gives me "visceral" thrills at reasonable speeds. It even has a better exhaust note.
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Old 01-07-2018, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by pc4ever View Post
Here's another difference - compared to my 991 Turbo S, my 718 Boxster S gives me "visceral" thrills at reasonable speeds. It even has a better exhaust note.
No doubt. The 991 Turbo S is an amazing machine, capable of so much more than the common man should be able to harness. Although I enjoy driving my friends it is the least engaging Porsche I have ever driven. It is just too easy to drive fast and does everything so effortlessly. Unless you are breaking both the laws of physics and the speed limit three times + over they are not very engaging.The TTS is easy to go fast in but offers me no challenge or interaction with the road that my earlier air-cooled cars do. My 981GTS is fun and somewhat visceral but offers far less then the earlier cars do. So many accomplished drivers climb behind the wheel of an air-cooled 911 and realize how little they actually know about driving and the lack of nannies and old school suspension humbles them. Very few cars both old and new offer the level of engagement and excitement an early 911 does at speeds that aren't breaking the sound barrier.
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Old 01-07-2018, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by pc4ever View Post
Here's another difference - compared to my 991 Turbo S, my 718 Boxster S gives me "visceral" thrills at reasonable speeds. It even has a better exhaust note.
Iíll give you that in complete understanding. Any Boxster will be more visceral of a drive than just about any 991. Especially more than the fastest and most isolated/coddling 911 on the market.

And while I truly donít like the exhaust note of the 718, turbo flat sixes tend to sound so bland (compared to N/A flat sixes) that even what I consider offensive about the turbo 4 lends it at least some emotion and character over the turbo flat six (which in comparison sounds too quiet and refined). N/A flat six vs turbo flat six are different realms of sound to me.
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