1994 Porsche 3.6 Flachbau FOR SALE? WP0AC2964RS480446
11-23-2015 | 10:55 PM
#31
Banned
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 549
Likes: 5
Nice write up. Hard to imagine anybody knows more about these cars than you or Mark Smith. I understand why many prefer the TSL car, however clearly no correct answer. Personal preference , its why they make different flavors for different folks. All speciale and rare cars. In terms of what that white car sold for I heard closer to 1/2 of what you quote from a pretty good source but he could be wrong. Thanks for the info and smart call back in the day ordering one, you were ahead of your time !
In terms of how many Steve G owned, if it was 6 I agree it was not 6 at a time. I do recall him owning the pearl white car which was super cool, and I recall a red one for sure that ended up at Porsche NYC a few years back for sale.
In terms of how many Steve G owned, if it was 6 I agree it was not 6 at a time. I do recall him owning the pearl white car which was super cool, and I recall a red one for sure that ended up at Porsche NYC a few years back for sale.
11-23-2015 | 11:50 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,581
Likes: 387
From: Driver's Seat
Thank you very much for the informative read!! The color on how "package cars" came to be--as an appendix to Flachbau history--is most interesting.
I'm happy to stand corrected
Now the curious bit... why did Japan receive a batch of 930-inspired flachbaus out of the gate? Logic would suggest some sort of specific, regional market input, or there wouldn't have been different versions in different markets...
I'm happy to stand corrected
Now the curious bit... why did Japan receive a batch of 930-inspired flachbaus out of the gate? Logic would suggest some sort of specific, regional market input, or there wouldn't have been different versions in different markets...
11-24-2015 | 12:01 AM
#33
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Joined: Nov 2012
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From: The Motor City
One important takeaway here is that the very limited production cars were few and far between to begin with - really high quality ones (in terms of mileage and originality) are now even more so. There will always be more buyers than cars at this level for these models.
11-24-2015 | 12:23 AM
#34
Banned
Joined: Apr 2007
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One important takeaway here is that the very limited production cars were few and far between to begin with - really high quality ones (in terms of mileage and originality) are now even more so. There will always be more buyers than cars at this level for these models.
11-24-2015 | 01:22 AM
#35
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 129
Likes: 45
CRex- I agree with you, I think the cars for Japan were most likely a specific market driven request from the official importer for Porsche in Japan who I believe at that time was Mitsuwa Motors.
NYC123- I think there has been a confusion on the white car that recently sold because it was recently offered around to a few collectors and dealers let's say that are "in the know" in the $600-650 range...it was quickly purchased by Marshall Goldman and very recently quickly resold in the claimed $1.3-$1.4 range. I think some people have confused the recent initial offered price with the recent supposed sold price not realizing that someone bought it and already sold it in the meantime! I would say well bought and well sold.
NYC123- I think there has been a confusion on the white car that recently sold because it was recently offered around to a few collectors and dealers let's say that are "in the know" in the $600-650 range...it was quickly purchased by Marshall Goldman and very recently quickly resold in the claimed $1.3-$1.4 range. I think some people have confused the recent initial offered price with the recent supposed sold price not realizing that someone bought it and already sold it in the meantime! I would say well bought and well sold.
11-24-2015 | 11:31 AM
#36
Banned
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 549
Likes: 5
CRex- I agree with you, I think the cars for Japan were most likely a specific market driven request from the official importer for Porsche in Japan who I believe at that time was Mitsuwa Motors.
NYC123- I think there has been a confusion on the white car that recently sold because it was recently offered around to a few collectors and dealers let's say that are "in the know" in the $600-650 range...it was quickly purchased by Marshall Goldman and very recently quickly resold in the claimed $1.3-$1.4 range. I think some people have confused the recent initial offered price with the recent supposed sold price not realizing that someone bought it and already sold it in the meantime! I would say well bought and well sold.
NYC123- I think there has been a confusion on the white car that recently sold because it was recently offered around to a few collectors and dealers let's say that are "in the know" in the $600-650 range...it was quickly purchased by Marshall Goldman and very recently quickly resold in the claimed $1.3-$1.4 range. I think some people have confused the recent initial offered price with the recent supposed sold price not realizing that someone bought it and already sold it in the meantime! I would say well bought and well sold.
Last edited by NYC123; 11-24-2015 at 12:23 PM.
11-27-2015 | 12:25 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 22,807
Likes: 2,345
From: New Jersey
Rey,
I have photos of Steve with them lined up in their bubbles might not have been 6 but a considerable number at once. The white one was special and never left its bubble. I know you traded these back and forth and he had switched over to the 997RS's in assorted colors and combos. Including the heavily optioned signal green car. IIRC he also had the Seinfeld riviera blue 600 mile 993TT at the time.
You defiantely have more experience with these than anyone. I know we discussed about 100+ stock 3.6T's you traded and they seemed to be the majority of decent cars out there. Back in the early 2000's there were so many cars with hidden issues which all seem to have been folded into the mainstream cars with their histories somehow forgotten. How are these cars impacting the market for the good cars in general?
I have photos of Steve with them lined up in their bubbles might not have been 6 but a considerable number at once. The white one was special and never left its bubble. I know you traded these back and forth and he had switched over to the 997RS's in assorted colors and combos. Including the heavily optioned signal green car. IIRC he also had the Seinfeld riviera blue 600 mile 993TT at the time.
You defiantely have more experience with these than anyone. I know we discussed about 100+ stock 3.6T's you traded and they seemed to be the majority of decent cars out there. Back in the early 2000's there were so many cars with hidden issues which all seem to have been folded into the mainstream cars with their histories somehow forgotten. How are these cars impacting the market for the good cars in general?
02-18-2016 | 12:56 AM
#38
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,066
Likes: 6
From: U.S. West Coast
Hi everyone - been some time since I have posted but I thought I would chime in on this (now) old thread ... in no particular order
- Ray knows more about the genesis of the 1994 Turbo S cars in north america than anyone and his description of events is 100% accurate
- the flatnose was a very expensive marketing department exercise to celebrate the outgoing 964 turbo and was in the tradition of the 930S M505/M506 cars
- the 'package car' was a marketing department exercise as well (as described by Ray) .. prior to the package car they were already offering this car in the ROW as a series of available order options (X88 option etc.)
- the TSL (a much superior performance car to the 94 Turbo S but a much less expensive car to build) was a total marketing department exercise due to actual customer demand as a result of Porsche success in IMSA. But unlike the 1994 Turbo S cars where there was no customer demand to start (as described by Ray) the market demanded a lightweight production turbo. If Porsche had not won the north american IMSA championship in 1991/92 there would be no TSL (for the record the homologation car for IMSA was the S2 and by the time they built the TSL they were already racing the 3.6 turbo in IMSA .. the reason for the S2 was that IMSA was not an FIA sanctioned series and regulations required that the homologation car be sold in north america. The TSL had no series for which it was homologated and by the time it was built no one was racing the 3.3 Turbo anywhere in the world)
- the flatnose was a hand built front end on its own bucks starting with 968 fender forms
- the rear fender ducts on the 1992 TSL and 1994 TS were hand formed on bucks and were not inserts like the 993 Turbo S (just for the record)
- porsche itself recognized the uniqueness of the flatnose v the package car and its X88 cousin when they sought one out from me to display at the 25th anniversary of exclusive
- despite (relatively) higher production numbers the flatnose will exceed the value of the package cars in the long run as they were unique and completely hand built .. the package car front end is production line
- Ray knows more about the genesis of the 1994 Turbo S cars in north america than anyone and his description of events is 100% accurate
- the flatnose was a very expensive marketing department exercise to celebrate the outgoing 964 turbo and was in the tradition of the 930S M505/M506 cars
- the 'package car' was a marketing department exercise as well (as described by Ray) .. prior to the package car they were already offering this car in the ROW as a series of available order options (X88 option etc.)
- the TSL (a much superior performance car to the 94 Turbo S but a much less expensive car to build) was a total marketing department exercise due to actual customer demand as a result of Porsche success in IMSA. But unlike the 1994 Turbo S cars where there was no customer demand to start (as described by Ray) the market demanded a lightweight production turbo. If Porsche had not won the north american IMSA championship in 1991/92 there would be no TSL (for the record the homologation car for IMSA was the S2 and by the time they built the TSL they were already racing the 3.6 turbo in IMSA .. the reason for the S2 was that IMSA was not an FIA sanctioned series and regulations required that the homologation car be sold in north america. The TSL had no series for which it was homologated and by the time it was built no one was racing the 3.3 Turbo anywhere in the world)
- the flatnose was a hand built front end on its own bucks starting with 968 fender forms
- the rear fender ducts on the 1992 TSL and 1994 TS were hand formed on bucks and were not inserts like the 993 Turbo S (just for the record)
- porsche itself recognized the uniqueness of the flatnose v the package car and its X88 cousin when they sought one out from me to display at the 25th anniversary of exclusive
- despite (relatively) higher production numbers the flatnose will exceed the value of the package cars in the long run as they were unique and completely hand built .. the package car front end is production line
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fabricar el 965 (11-07-2022)
04-19-2016 | 09:32 PM
#40
Intermediate
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
I very rarely post on Rennlist, but in this case I am in a unique position to add some information on this topic that I hope you guys will find interesting and helpful. By VIN number I have owned 10 of the 39 USA production Flachbaus….5 of those 10 VIN’s I have owned numerous times…some cars once each, some twice each, some 2-3 times each etc. I also bought a Flachbau as a new car back in 94, so I was one of the original 39 owners. I can’t say for sure but most likely I have owned more Flachbaus more times than anyone through the years. I currently own 2 of them today, one with 3,800 miles and one with 4,900 miles. I have also owned 3 “Package” cars. I was one of the main contributors to Mark Smith for his great flachbau.com website. I only mention all of this to say that I am knowledgeable on these cars.
In late 93 when this special model was offered to US Porsche dealers for possible order it was certainly not a marketing department exercise as the car was offered with zero promotion, no brochures, no publicity or marketing at all, was pretty much a surprise offering even to the dealers. US Porsche dealers simply received a 1-2 page fax with very few details and no pictures of what the car would look like…..everyone that saw the fax asked, “what does it look like? What is a flat nose?? (as it was referred in the PCNA fax in English) There was a VERY short window to order the car…the window by my recollection was approx 7-10 days…I remember it was less than 2 weeks for sure….also keep in mind no picture to go by! The option price of $60,179 was unheard of in 1993….for an option! Not a whole car! It still might be the most expensive normal option on a new car even to this day. A car with a MSRP in the $160’s-$170’s was extremely expensive at that time, especially for a 911. Most of the Porsche dealers at that time were small dealers, many combined with VW franchises etc and selling few 911’s. Most of the faxes offering this special car went right in the trash can…nobody wanted any part of it! A few of the bigger aggressive dealers called their best clients and convinced them to order….it was a tough sale at that price and no picture. That is how the 39 cars got sold….the cars had to be ordered in a client’s name with a non-refundable deposit…that was made very clear. As I recall I was only shown a picture of the test mule AFTER my order was accepted, I was supplied this picture and that was it ! http://www.flachbau.com/VII-X84-ROW/X84-image-1.jpg As I understand it these were the last cars built before the line was closed to re-tool to start 993 production. The ordering window was so short due to this time constraint and when word started to trickle out (remember the internet was not a real factor then…everything was pretty much phone, fax and pictures by mail or Fedex) a lot of VIP and repeat clients started jumping up and down that they wanted a Flatnose! For whatever reason they missed the order window…either because they were never informed or they didn’t decide quick enough etc etc. So Porsche had a headache on their hands….finally Porsche responded as an alternative for the guys that missed out on a Flachbau, that they could order a car that was exactly the same but with “normal fenders/headlights”. The reason Porsche could not build more Flachbaus was there was not enough time to make more of the special fenders as they were made by hand and there simply was no more time due to the 993 retool. They could build a few more cars with the special engine and other features but not with the special fenders/lights. Most guys at that time felt they were getting offered second best in their mind and refused the offer and that is why only 17 “Package” cars were built.
A few other points after reading through the various threads re Flachbaus lately-
There were 39 USA cars and apparently 76 in total counting cars built for other countries. Most US buyers today don’t buy and sell cars on a world-wide basis so normally in the US we are concerned with US production numbers, especially when a US version was offered. Few US buyers will consider a grey market car when a US version is possible.
Although 39 is a very low production number the “real” count is far lower as many have been wrecked, severely damaged, stolen, exported, high miles, modified etc. I have a data base of 26 of the 39 US cars and at least 14 of those 26 have history that would make them un-appealing to a top level collector wanting the best. I am almost positive that a similar percentage of the 13 cars not in my data base would be not of the highest quality as well. The number of extremely low mile virgins is very small perhaps 10 or so or even less. Some of these are tucked away and will never see the light of day. Even when Porsche wanted one for display for the opening of the new factory museum in 2009 they had to reach out to private owners for a car to display as they didn’t have one in the factory collection. They felt the car was that significant that they wanted it displayed at the museum opening.
I saw mentioned that “Steve G.” had six at one time….I am 99.9% sure this is incorrect as I was involved in many of his transactions regarding his Porsches. He had one Flachbau that I bought from him and another I had no involvement with for a total of 2. I believe the 6 that was referred to was a group of 997 GT3 RS that he had assembled at the same time in all the offered colors that were in car cocoons/ bubbles that caused a stir several years ago.
Although the 964 Turbo S Leichtbau is no doubt a very desirable car (I wish I had one!) it is a different car entirely….I can understand the debate in some people’s eyes regarding the value of Flachbau vs Package but the 964 Turbo S Leichtbau is un-related IMHO especially since it was never offered here officially. Fantastic machine but another topic entirely.
As far as the value of Flachbau vs Package, I see them as two extremely desirable cars that are both great…not that one is better than the other but different. I have been privileged to have owned both at the same time and I loved both. If I had to choose I always lean to the Flachbau because I was there when they were new and I know the whole story of the hand-made last of the line etc etc….to me that is a big deal….It is how Porsche planned it to be. The Package car was a bit of an afterthought, more of a marketing decision to try and please a few people…and sell a few more cars.
As far as the white flachbau that recently sold for $1.3-$1.4 mil, yes it is my understanding that this sale did occur. Knowing one of the principals well I believe it to be so. Certain cars today bring very big prices while average and below average cars sit but at higher prices than years past.
Sorry for the long winded post but I thought you guys might want to hear some info you may not have heard before from someone who was there back in the day and still here today! I hate to sound like a know-it-all but couldn’t think of a better way to say it all. Thanks for listening, hope you found it interesting.
Thanks Ray Joseph RPM Sports Cars
In late 93 when this special model was offered to US Porsche dealers for possible order it was certainly not a marketing department exercise as the car was offered with zero promotion, no brochures, no publicity or marketing at all, was pretty much a surprise offering even to the dealers. US Porsche dealers simply received a 1-2 page fax with very few details and no pictures of what the car would look like…..everyone that saw the fax asked, “what does it look like? What is a flat nose?? (as it was referred in the PCNA fax in English) There was a VERY short window to order the car…the window by my recollection was approx 7-10 days…I remember it was less than 2 weeks for sure….also keep in mind no picture to go by! The option price of $60,179 was unheard of in 1993….for an option! Not a whole car! It still might be the most expensive normal option on a new car even to this day. A car with a MSRP in the $160’s-$170’s was extremely expensive at that time, especially for a 911. Most of the Porsche dealers at that time were small dealers, many combined with VW franchises etc and selling few 911’s. Most of the faxes offering this special car went right in the trash can…nobody wanted any part of it! A few of the bigger aggressive dealers called their best clients and convinced them to order….it was a tough sale at that price and no picture. That is how the 39 cars got sold….the cars had to be ordered in a client’s name with a non-refundable deposit…that was made very clear. As I recall I was only shown a picture of the test mule AFTER my order was accepted, I was supplied this picture and that was it ! http://www.flachbau.com/VII-X84-ROW/X84-image-1.jpg As I understand it these were the last cars built before the line was closed to re-tool to start 993 production. The ordering window was so short due to this time constraint and when word started to trickle out (remember the internet was not a real factor then…everything was pretty much phone, fax and pictures by mail or Fedex) a lot of VIP and repeat clients started jumping up and down that they wanted a Flatnose! For whatever reason they missed the order window…either because they were never informed or they didn’t decide quick enough etc etc. So Porsche had a headache on their hands….finally Porsche responded as an alternative for the guys that missed out on a Flachbau, that they could order a car that was exactly the same but with “normal fenders/headlights”. The reason Porsche could not build more Flachbaus was there was not enough time to make more of the special fenders as they were made by hand and there simply was no more time due to the 993 retool. They could build a few more cars with the special engine and other features but not with the special fenders/lights. Most guys at that time felt they were getting offered second best in their mind and refused the offer and that is why only 17 “Package” cars were built.
A few other points after reading through the various threads re Flachbaus lately-
There were 39 USA cars and apparently 76 in total counting cars built for other countries. Most US buyers today don’t buy and sell cars on a world-wide basis so normally in the US we are concerned with US production numbers, especially when a US version was offered. Few US buyers will consider a grey market car when a US version is possible.
Although 39 is a very low production number the “real” count is far lower as many have been wrecked, severely damaged, stolen, exported, high miles, modified etc. I have a data base of 26 of the 39 US cars and at least 14 of those 26 have history that would make them un-appealing to a top level collector wanting the best. I am almost positive that a similar percentage of the 13 cars not in my data base would be not of the highest quality as well. The number of extremely low mile virgins is very small perhaps 10 or so or even less. Some of these are tucked away and will never see the light of day. Even when Porsche wanted one for display for the opening of the new factory museum in 2009 they had to reach out to private owners for a car to display as they didn’t have one in the factory collection. They felt the car was that significant that they wanted it displayed at the museum opening.
I saw mentioned that “Steve G.” had six at one time….I am 99.9% sure this is incorrect as I was involved in many of his transactions regarding his Porsches. He had one Flachbau that I bought from him and another I had no involvement with for a total of 2. I believe the 6 that was referred to was a group of 997 GT3 RS that he had assembled at the same time in all the offered colors that were in car cocoons/ bubbles that caused a stir several years ago.
Although the 964 Turbo S Leichtbau is no doubt a very desirable car (I wish I had one!) it is a different car entirely….I can understand the debate in some people’s eyes regarding the value of Flachbau vs Package but the 964 Turbo S Leichtbau is un-related IMHO especially since it was never offered here officially. Fantastic machine but another topic entirely.
As far as the value of Flachbau vs Package, I see them as two extremely desirable cars that are both great…not that one is better than the other but different. I have been privileged to have owned both at the same time and I loved both. If I had to choose I always lean to the Flachbau because I was there when they were new and I know the whole story of the hand-made last of the line etc etc….to me that is a big deal….It is how Porsche planned it to be. The Package car was a bit of an afterthought, more of a marketing decision to try and please a few people…and sell a few more cars.
As far as the white flachbau that recently sold for $1.3-$1.4 mil, yes it is my understanding that this sale did occur. Knowing one of the principals well I believe it to be so. Certain cars today bring very big prices while average and below average cars sit but at higher prices than years past.
Sorry for the long winded post but I thought you guys might want to hear some info you may not have heard before from someone who was there back in the day and still here today! I hate to sound like a know-it-all but couldn’t think of a better way to say it all. Thanks for listening, hope you found it interesting.
Thanks Ray Joseph RPM Sports Cars
I may never own either of those two beautiful cars, but I can intimately appreciate both because of your post.
Genuinely, Thank you.