Looking for a 964 3.6 Turbo
04-11-2013, 01:23 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
Value is subjective, so there is no definitive answer, but I can give you my perspective as an owner of 11 years standing. Gorgeous shape. Spectacular wheels. Worthwhile torque at low revs and a real punch when boost comes on i.e. the drivability is good in every day driving and you can hit the boost whenever you need a fix. Build quality - mine feels "like new" or at least that's what the mechanic told me. Reliability - starts first time. Smell - they should bottle Porsche leather and hot oil, I'd buy it. Renown - it's been lauded by so many articles over the years that it has a fan base that have never driven one. Resale - it has a buyer base that makes it easy to offload, if you want/need to. In short a drivable classic that makes you feel good inside the car and good just looking at it, plus keeps its value.
04-11-2013, 10:39 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
I'm hunting for a little clarification concerning some of the claims made about the import numbers and value of the Turbo 3.6.
1. In his Original Porsche 911, Peter Morgan indicates that 288 Turbo 3.6s were produced for the US market in 1993. Adrian Streather, in his Auftragsnummer 964, asserts that 466 Turbo 3.6s were produced for the 1994 US market (the production number of 466, Streather claims, "includes [the] first 288 built, converted from 1993 model to 1994 model"). Patrick Paternie's Porsche 911 Redbook shows that 466 1994 model year Turbo 3.6s were produced for the US market. What objective evidence exists to verify that fewer than 466 Turbo 3.6s made their way into the US market?
2. The value of the Turbo 3.6 is apparently connected to its rarity. A car's rarity, however, is a sufficient but not a necessary condition for a car's value. The 996 GT2, for example, is very rare, but its limited production has not enhanced its current market value. The US market 3.3 964 Turbo, in terms of its production numbers, is rare as well, with 983 cars produced for that market. Are the larger front brake calipers, the larger engine, the Speedline wheels, and the reduced production numbers of the Turbo 3.6 (in relation to the production numbers for the 3.3 964 Turbo) the significant differences which push the value of the Turbo 3.6 beyond the value of the 3.3 964 Turbo? (If road tests of the Turbo 3.6 and the 3.3 964 Turbo are to be believed, then the performance differences of the two cars would not, in my estimation, serve as a sufficient explanation of the price differences between the 3.6 and 3.3 litre versions of the 964 Turbo; see http://www.weissach.net/964-993_RoadTestSummary.html for a partial summary of road tests involving both cars). What, then, is driving the value of the Turbo 3.6? I don't believe that the car is overvalued, but I'm coming up a bit short of a compelling argument to justify its value.
1. In his Original Porsche 911, Peter Morgan indicates that 288 Turbo 3.6s were produced for the US market in 1993. Adrian Streather, in his Auftragsnummer 964, asserts that 466 Turbo 3.6s were produced for the 1994 US market (the production number of 466, Streather claims, "includes [the] first 288 built, converted from 1993 model to 1994 model"). Patrick Paternie's Porsche 911 Redbook shows that 466 1994 model year Turbo 3.6s were produced for the US market. What objective evidence exists to verify that fewer than 466 Turbo 3.6s made their way into the US market?
2. The value of the Turbo 3.6 is apparently connected to its rarity. A car's rarity, however, is a sufficient but not a necessary condition for a car's value. The 996 GT2, for example, is very rare, but its limited production has not enhanced its current market value. The US market 3.3 964 Turbo, in terms of its production numbers, is rare as well, with 983 cars produced for that market. Are the larger front brake calipers, the larger engine, the Speedline wheels, and the reduced production numbers of the Turbo 3.6 (in relation to the production numbers for the 3.3 964 Turbo) the significant differences which push the value of the Turbo 3.6 beyond the value of the 3.3 964 Turbo? (If road tests of the Turbo 3.6 and the 3.3 964 Turbo are to be believed, then the performance differences of the two cars would not, in my estimation, serve as a sufficient explanation of the price differences between the 3.6 and 3.3 litre versions of the 964 Turbo; see http://www.weissach.net/964-993_RoadTestSummary.html for a partial summary of road tests involving both cars). What, then, is driving the value of the Turbo 3.6? I don't believe that the car is overvalued, but I'm coming up a bit short of a compelling argument to justify its value.
Porsche's records are fractional at best. The only model I am aware of that has accurate records in public hands right down to color codes and options is the 928. They have all the factory records and have broken down the GTS's by color combo and tranny type. Although they have more this is all they published. www.928registry.org
It was me who actually brought the revised count to Adrian's attention. He did not realize that the 288 originally though to be made for 1993 were M718 coded to change vin to 1994 MY cars. These used P coded engines and trannys with an R coded vin. In fact as time went on more cars from the 964 line have surfaced as M718 code lowering the overall count of 964's from what the known sources have listed. The mid 90's was the turning point for Porsche. They easily could have gone out of business with the lowest production numbers and highest manufacturing costs. Thankfully they did not but what was produced at that time was IMO some of the best quality and most inspiring cars they made. Engineered the old fashioned way with a real hands on approach to manufacturing. Change was inevitable in order for them to survive. For me this is one of the primary reasons I like the 1990-1994 model lines.
Now we have established that the number should be 466. We know the last few cars were shipped off to the werks department to make the coveted flachbau's and package cars. So using the resources compiled thanks to Mark Smith and his great site http://www.flachbau.com we know that the last US bound turbo was a flachbau http://www.flachbau.com/VIII-X85-USA/480466/480466.php. So if we subtract the known 39 flachbau's and the 17 package cars (two of which were shipped to Canada) that leaves 410 US spec stock turbos.
What was not understood until I had several conversations thanks to Norbert of http://www.turbo-look.de/index-en.php was that Porsche did not use the first 60 serial/vin numbers of each years production. It is speculation however the reason is believed that the first 60 cars of each MY were test mules to test for compliance to US standards. Whether or not this is the reasoning I cannot say. However as shown in the 928 registry each MY begins with a vin number starting in 061 not 001 http://www.928registry.org/928%20Reg...928GTS-VIN.htm
Based on this information and a vin decoding site Norbert supplied me with, we did a search on a number of different vin #'s ranging from 001 randomly hitting numbers up the line the first car showing any info was vin # 061. I then hit the 288 range to see what cars were M718 coded which showed the number of M718 coded cars to be 288 so this was confirmed. Next we checked the codes for the vins in the 466 range and as expected 466 was the last vin to show any production info. I asked the members of this forum to confirm this info and per this thread https://rennlist.com/forums/964-turb...fo-needed.html to reaffirm my findings although not much info there we still see a similar pattern.
So now we start with 466 subtract the 39 flachbau's the 17 package cars that leaves us with 410 stock US spec turbos. If you subtract the first 60 vin #'s that leaves us with 350. Unfortunately this does not give us enough info to determine how many were imported to the US and how many went to other countries like Canada. We know 2 of the package cars went to Canada and there have been at least 20 or so stock turbos that have surfaced over the years. We also have no idea how many of these vin numbers were converted to race cars since there were a number of these used in the cup series.
I took this info and I spoke with Ray Joseph of RPM Sports cars. He is undoubtedly the largest seller of these cars and recognized their value long before anyone else. His list of vin numbers he sold is quite impressive. At one point or another the majority of these cars passed through his hands sometimes more than several times. We could not find a single vin number prior to 061 or past 466 so IMO this is enough proof to determine that 350 US spec stock turbos were made.
I know of several that went to Mexico, and some South American countries a number to Canada and we are probably closer to 300 +/- imported directly to the US. I started a data base in 2001 and I never came across any that contradict this info and I also had come across nearly 60 cars that had been either totaled or had salvage titles. So now we are at or below the 250 mark for cars worth buying. Countless pristine examples have been shipped out of the US so as you can see the number of cars left in the US keeps getting smaller and smaller. I have also looked at numerous cars for prospective buyers only to find accident damage being covered up.
I would also like to point out that the info you are using for the 3.3's is inaccurate. There were actually 903 since the 1991 674 were actually 614 due to the first 60 vins not being used and the 309 for 1992 also did not use the first 60 vin #'s and all the 20 S2 cars were part of that vin number sequence. This leaves only 229 92MY turbos if you separate out the S2's.
Unfortunately I did not have the opportunity to check all the Models and years however if a car has a vin number specific to its model I would venture to say that we are looking at hundreds less were made to US spec than what is published in Adrian's book for all models making the 964 one of the lowest production models available. Although that is a topic for another thread.
Now as far as the link to compare the info provided regarding the different cars. I would be hesitant to put much merit into it. Although these magazines loved to rave about the cars in their articles the standards, criteria, and whatever else they could use to sell magazines I find their info to be all over the charts and a guide more than a factual database.
The 3.6 holds its value for many reasons. One is the iconic movie Bad Boys this has made a mark for this model and made many dream about owning one. The speedlines and special badging made it an Icon. Although the magazines claim similar numbers for the 3.3 and 3.6 I don't believe it. The larger displacement of the motor is IMO the key factor. Far easier to drive off boost and significantly stronger once you get the turbo spooled up. The tests I find more factual are from the European magazines. I believe they show more accurate results. I can assure you these cars did not do 0-60 in 4.0 seconds unless you plan on changing your clutch every 1200 miles. The 3.3 was closer to the 930 at 4.9 seconds 0-60 and the 3.6 closer to 4.6 seconds. Where they really differ is from 0-100mph with the 3.3 liter roughly covering it in 11.1 seconds and the 3.6 in 1.6 seconds less time at 9.5 seconds. The 3.6T actually tested faster than the 993TT to 124 by .1 seconds at 15 and 15.1 respectively the 3.3 was further behind at 17.2 seconds. Magazines like Auto Motor and Sport & automobile review IMO had more interest in reporting the facts than the US magazines which only were interested in selling magazines. Although this does not detract from the 3.3 which can easily be made faster and otherwise the same car.
There was an interesting article in Excellence magazine comparing the 964 turbo S against the 993Turbo S the 996 TT and the 959. Take it for what it is worth but ironically the results were far closer than most people realize. So if you want the last of the rear wheel drive single turbo monsters with the classic 911 lines there is only one option a 3.6T the 3.3 is a close second and IMO a fantastic car as it stands. If Porsche did not make the 3.6T in 1994 we might be discussing the virtues of the 3.3 and their values (which are on the rise) instead.
As far as a car like the 996GT2 quite simply its time has not come yet it is till too new and the inverted bell curve that has been seen on all these earlier air cooled cars has not yet caught up to where these cars are now but again as you said rarity is not always a reason for an emotional purchase. It is also followed by many similar and faster models where the value ends up with these is yet to be seen.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by cobalt; 04-11-2013 at 10:59 AM.
04-11-2013, 01:56 PM
#35
Racer
Thanks for your synopsis of your reseach concerning the 964-series Turbos, Cobalt. The evidentiary chain which you've constructed is compelling and, in my estimation, establishes the key reason for the value of the 3.6 Turbo: its rarity. The value of the 3.6 Turbo is directly connected to its limited production and, as you and John McM note, to its quality.
The rationale with which you accept certain test results at the expense of others is less compelling, however, if only because it slants evidence and thus violates one of the basic principles of reasoning--the requirement of total evidence. The Auto Motor und Sport tests to which you make reference are part of that evidence, certainly, and I never implied that the table to which I made reference served as exhaustive confirmation of the performance of the 964-series Turbos.
I agree, Cobalt, that the performance of the 3.6 Turbo is a factor in its current value, but the case concerning production numbers which you've presented provides a secure explanation of the price point for that car.
The rationale with which you accept certain test results at the expense of others is less compelling, however, if only because it slants evidence and thus violates one of the basic principles of reasoning--the requirement of total evidence. The Auto Motor und Sport tests to which you make reference are part of that evidence, certainly, and I never implied that the table to which I made reference served as exhaustive confirmation of the performance of the 964-series Turbos.
I agree, Cobalt, that the performance of the 3.6 Turbo is a factor in its current value, but the case concerning production numbers which you've presented provides a secure explanation of the price point for that car.
04-12-2013, 09:31 AM
#37
Rennlist Member
Thanks for your synopsis of your reseach concerning the 964-series Turbos, Cobalt. The evidentiary chain which you've constructed is compelling and, in my estimation, establishes the key reason for the value of the 3.6 Turbo: its rarity. The value of the 3.6 Turbo is directly connected to its limited production and, as you and John McM note, to its quality.
The rationale with which you accept certain test results at the expense of others is less compelling, however, if only because it slants evidence and thus violates one of the basic principles of reasoning--the requirement of total evidence. The Auto Motor und Sport tests to which you make reference are part of that evidence, certainly, and I never implied that the table to which I made reference served as exhaustive confirmation of the performance of the 964-series Turbos.
I agree, Cobalt, that the performance of the 3.6 Turbo is a factor in its current value, but the case concerning production numbers which you've presented provides a secure explanation of the price point for that car.
The rationale with which you accept certain test results at the expense of others is less compelling, however, if only because it slants evidence and thus violates one of the basic principles of reasoning--the requirement of total evidence. The Auto Motor und Sport tests to which you make reference are part of that evidence, certainly, and I never implied that the table to which I made reference served as exhaustive confirmation of the performance of the 964-series Turbos.
I agree, Cobalt, that the performance of the 3.6 Turbo is a factor in its current value, but the case concerning production numbers which you've presented provides a secure explanation of the price point for that car.
Your welcome
Only had to wait 29,684 seconds to post again
I could get into a discussion about my lengthy list of reasons to ignore the results from Motor trend, Car and driver and the like from that time period, but I think you will agree it would be rather drawn out, unnecessary and won't change anything regarding the market for these cars. In either case the factory numbers although conservative are more likely to be an accurate depiction of how these cars varied in performance.
04-12-2013, 01:32 PM
#39
Racer
I could get into a discussion about my lengthy list of reasons to ignore the results from Motor trend, Car and driver and the like from that time period, but I think you will agree it would be rather drawn out, unnecessary and won't change anything regarding the market for these cars. In either case the factory numbers although conservative are more likely to be an accurate depiction of how these cars varied in performance.
Your analysis of the production numbers for the 964-series Turbos provides compelling evidence for the claim that the cars' rarity is shaping their market value--a value which will only be enhanced by the increasing favorability with which all 964-series cars are regarded.
04-12-2013, 05:08 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Obviously, the only definitive buyer motivation any of us can cite is our own. For me the performance is not just about numbers but temperament and accessibility. I like smooth engines with lots of torque, and the Turbo 3.6 has a very usable torque curve. The rolling start acceleration from 30 mph is perfect for the roads in New Zealand. I can overtake with ease at just below the open road speed limit of 60 mph and the gearing seems set up to do that with no fuss. Punch it in 3rd gear and it's like a huge wave is propelling you along effortlessly.
04-12-2013, 05:23 PM
#41
I don't care what magazines tell you but personally, prior to buying my 3.3 turbo I test drove both cars (3.3 and 3.6) back to back, few minutes apart and couldn't tell any performace/HP or any torque difference.
Not putting the 3.6 Turbo down but to say it has noticeable performace difference/edge over the 3.3, is all "macroni"
Having said that, I would have definately bought a 3.6 had I found one when I was looking.
Not putting the 3.6 Turbo down but to say it has noticeable performace difference/edge over the 3.3, is all "macroni"
Having said that, I would have definately bought a 3.6 had I found one when I was looking.
04-12-2013, 09:47 PM
#42
Instructor
Interesting thread... I just wrapped up reading it. The reason I purchased this car... I remember when I was in college and used to race just about every weekend. One of the people that raced on the same team as me had a '94 Turbo - black/black car. It was under my nose time and time again... I always said 'one day I'm going to purchase a red one with tan interior when the price (and time) is right'. Needless to say the time was right about 8 years ago and I pulled the trigger when my car popped up on ebay. The beautiful and timeless style of the car is what stood out in my mind - it's a beautiful car and limited production. I own a few vehicles of all makes and models. I'm in no way a Porsche guy, even though I've owned a few through the years. However I'm a 964 Turbo guy, it's the type of car I'd have a picture of hanging on my wall when I was younger. I'm a firm believer these cars will continue to go up in value because there are plenty of people like myself that have this vehicle etched in their brains from seeing them drive by, having a ride in one and etc. When we finally do purchase them - we hold onto them. Would I sell it today for $100k - no, it brings me more enjoyment than that. Heck, I never even drove one prior to purchasing my car - I didn't even test drive my car prior to purchasing it. In fact I had a friend from Long Island inspect the car for me prior to my purchase. I loved the car for what it is.
In the past 20 years there haven't been many production cars I 'had' to have - but the 964 Turbo is one that I felt compelled to pull the trigger on and I'm thankful I did. I don't drive the car often, but when I do it puts a nice smile on my face and it brings back a lot of memories. The payoff is the sheer enjoyment I get when I look at the car, it brings a smile to my face every time. I also smile from ear to ear when I drive it and sometimes show it at various events. If I ever lose the smile, the car will be for sale in short order. Great, rare and fun cars demand higher premiums - face it, everyone on this forum understands that. Another car that I felt is a 'must have' - the Ford GT. I love the style, American muscle and exotic look all wrapped up into one - again, I'm thankful and proud to own one. Another car I'd hang the pictures on my wall proudly (and do)!
The vehicles that were hanging on my wall in high school and college are now achievable for myself and others in the same boat to purchase. Our time is limited and our focus is fierce - if we want something we realize we need to go for it. Heck, you only live once... if you want it bad enough and can make it happen - why wait?
Life is good,
Lance
PS Fun to watch, considering it was 5 years or so ago:
In the past 20 years there haven't been many production cars I 'had' to have - but the 964 Turbo is one that I felt compelled to pull the trigger on and I'm thankful I did. I don't drive the car often, but when I do it puts a nice smile on my face and it brings back a lot of memories. The payoff is the sheer enjoyment I get when I look at the car, it brings a smile to my face every time. I also smile from ear to ear when I drive it and sometimes show it at various events. If I ever lose the smile, the car will be for sale in short order. Great, rare and fun cars demand higher premiums - face it, everyone on this forum understands that. Another car that I felt is a 'must have' - the Ford GT. I love the style, American muscle and exotic look all wrapped up into one - again, I'm thankful and proud to own one. Another car I'd hang the pictures on my wall proudly (and do)!
The vehicles that were hanging on my wall in high school and college are now achievable for myself and others in the same boat to purchase. Our time is limited and our focus is fierce - if we want something we realize we need to go for it. Heck, you only live once... if you want it bad enough and can make it happen - why wait?
Life is good,
Lance
PS Fun to watch, considering it was 5 years or so ago:
04-14-2013, 12:43 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
I don't care what magazines tell you but personally, prior to buying my 3.3 turbo I test drove both cars (3.3 and 3.6) back to back, few minutes apart and couldn't tell any performace/HP or any torque difference.
Not putting the 3.6 Turbo down but to say it has noticeable performace difference/edge over the 3.3, is all "macroni"
Having said that, I would have definately bought a 3.6 had I found one when I was looking.
Not putting the 3.6 Turbo down but to say it has noticeable performace difference/edge over the 3.3, is all "macroni"
Having said that, I would have definately bought a 3.6 had I found one when I was looking.
I
