Genuine Mistakes or Just Plain Incompetent? You decide...
09-02-2007, 04:41 AM
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Genuine Mistakes or Just Plain Incompetent? You decide...
My car has just had some new engine upgrades:
See my spec below, but HFS turbo and wastegate just fitted (and headers on order from ImagineAuto.) The car was running absolutely briliant before the work.
The shop has made a mess of my fuelling and the car runs very badly now. I am deciding whether to give them one more chance next week or give up and go elsewhere. Here's the problem:
The mechanic is reputed be a big authority on turbo Porsches, and modified/ race cars. Here are the issues:
1. Firstly he told me that the new turbo did NOT need running in. (I insisted he did anyway after advice from the maker).
2. He set the CO to 0.8. Even though many have said here, it needs to be set at 3%, and that's what it was before.
3. He didn't know whether the O2/ Lambda sensor was disconnected or not (he told me he didn't believe it should be). it was before. I have been told by other experts that if its not disconnected, the system fights the new settings and changes back.
4. Although he dyno'd the car, he did NOT measure any AFR's. He says he doesn't work by them. Other experts say AFR's are crucial.
5. He told me he set up my modified (Brian Leask) WUR without following the above.
6. He fitted a new 48mm Turbosmart wastegate (not the Tial most use) and which doesn't line up with our standard wastegate pipe so cut it without telling me first.
Are these genuine or understandable mistakes? Was his approach logical or sensible? Or incompetent and lazy? Should he be allowed anywhere near my car?
See my spec below, but HFS turbo and wastegate just fitted (and headers on order from ImagineAuto.) The car was running absolutely briliant before the work.
The shop has made a mess of my fuelling and the car runs very badly now. I am deciding whether to give them one more chance next week or give up and go elsewhere. Here's the problem:
The mechanic is reputed be a big authority on turbo Porsches, and modified/ race cars. Here are the issues:
1. Firstly he told me that the new turbo did NOT need running in. (I insisted he did anyway after advice from the maker).
2. He set the CO to 0.8. Even though many have said here, it needs to be set at 3%, and that's what it was before.
3. He didn't know whether the O2/ Lambda sensor was disconnected or not (he told me he didn't believe it should be). it was before. I have been told by other experts that if its not disconnected, the system fights the new settings and changes back.
4. Although he dyno'd the car, he did NOT measure any AFR's. He says he doesn't work by them. Other experts say AFR's are crucial.
5. He told me he set up my modified (Brian Leask) WUR without following the above.
6. He fitted a new 48mm Turbosmart wastegate (not the Tial most use) and which doesn't line up with our standard wastegate pipe so cut it without telling me first.
Are these genuine or understandable mistakes? Was his approach logical or sensible? Or incompetent and lazy? Should he be allowed anywhere near my car?
Last edited by 911addict; 09-04-2007 at 01:52 PM.
09-02-2007, 05:37 AM
#2
Burning Brakes
I'll agree to disagree on the O2 sensor thing - I personally consider it a necessity on a road car. However... anyone who tunes turbocharged engines and doesn't include AFR readings as one of the parameters by which the tuning is performed is an idiot - I wouldn't let them anywhere near one of my cars.
09-02-2007, 08:03 AM
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1. It's a custom turbo, not factory. Anyone know if you have to run in factory K27 turbos?
2. You probably do have to set it to 0.8CO if you are using the 02 sensor.
3. The 02 doesn't affect WOT which is where you need your own AFR settings to work.
4. How many times has it been said that you need to check AFR's when driving the car. Being on the dyno does not simulate driving a car on the road at all.
5. You would only setup a stock car like that.
6. You should have got a Tial from IA.
PS I wrote this without reading what anyone else wrote above me so lets see what is said.
2. You probably do have to set it to 0.8CO if you are using the 02 sensor.
3. The 02 doesn't affect WOT which is where you need your own AFR settings to work.
4. How many times has it been said that you need to check AFR's when driving the car. Being on the dyno does not simulate driving a car on the road at all.
5. You would only setup a stock car like that.
6. You should have got a Tial from IA.
PS I wrote this without reading what anyone else wrote above me so lets see what is said.
09-02-2007, 08:05 AM
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LOL only 1 reply.
Well I agree on the tuning without an AFR, that is impossible. However I would prefer to get my AFR from a blast in 3rd gear using an Innovate XD-16 or better. I have an XD-16 but might get a DL-32 when I get to fine tune.
As for the 02 sensor. I personally would try to tune my car with the Brian Leask WUR so well that I wouldn't need the 02 sensor at all to get good fuel economy at idle & cruise. However if it didn't happen I would try it connected, check my logs and decide whether to reconnect or disconnect. My 930 has no sensor and my modified USA fuel head has no provision for one.
Mark, you need a laptop to log unless you get a DL-32.
As for the answer to your question should I stay or should I go, that depends on whether you can ask him to do the job how YOU want.
I personally would tell you to f off if you told me how to do my job and be out of the door so fast... The reason is that if I do the job my way I know you will be happy with the end result & I also will be happy.
How does he respond? Would he be happy to tune the car how you want to what you want?
What are the premises like? Clean or tatty? What are his tools like? Cheap and nasty, dirty and abused or good quality and cared for? What does the install of your parts look like?
Well I agree on the tuning without an AFR, that is impossible. However I would prefer to get my AFR from a blast in 3rd gear using an Innovate XD-16 or better. I have an XD-16 but might get a DL-32 when I get to fine tune.
As for the 02 sensor. I personally would try to tune my car with the Brian Leask WUR so well that I wouldn't need the 02 sensor at all to get good fuel economy at idle & cruise. However if it didn't happen I would try it connected, check my logs and decide whether to reconnect or disconnect. My 930 has no sensor and my modified USA fuel head has no provision for one.
Mark, you need a laptop to log unless you get a DL-32.
As for the answer to your question should I stay or should I go, that depends on whether you can ask him to do the job how YOU want.
I personally would tell you to f off if you told me how to do my job and be out of the door so fast... The reason is that if I do the job my way I know you will be happy with the end result & I also will be happy.
How does he respond? Would he be happy to tune the car how you want to what you want?
What are the premises like? Clean or tatty? What are his tools like? Cheap and nasty, dirty and abused or good quality and cared for? What does the install of your parts look like?
Last edited by nathanUK '81 930 G50; 09-02-2007 at 08:49 AM.
09-02-2007, 12:17 PM
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Nathan & Meg, thanks for your feedback.
To clarify a little more:
- the HFS is built by Ultimate for Imagine. They told me it needs running in for 100 miles, and there are written instructions enclosed when the unit arrives! By the way, he also ignored the advice to install a .8 spring (although he has since changed it.)
- It has been said many times on here that the warm idle should be set at 3% CO with mods/ cat delete. My understanding from at least 2 experts on here is that if you leave the 02 connected with a non standard setup then it fights and readjusts your CO settings. For the garage to admit to not even having looked at it...
- He road tested it and said it was good. But the setting "changed" when I drove off. His road testing was 'butt feel' measured not with a AFR gauge of any kind.
- He recommended the Turbosmart as one he knows and has fitted before. If so how come it didn't fit right?
Nathan, I wouldn't tell an experienced expert how to do their job. But if they ignore the maker's recommendations then it doesn't work, and their own way is clearly not working, and then after a 2nd visit still no luck, then something is wrong here!
The fitting of the modified turbo unit is a separate issue. If all tuning procedures were followed thoroughly and we had these problems then I wouldn't be so upset. we could just go back to the standard turbo. As it is, everything has to be checked again to establish a base line. He didn't even do dyno readings or take notes of my settings before his work. That annoys me too!
PS: I do not want to get involved in data recordings and PC programs myself, I pay 'the professional's to do the work for me.
To clarify a little more:
- the HFS is built by Ultimate for Imagine. They told me it needs running in for 100 miles, and there are written instructions enclosed when the unit arrives! By the way, he also ignored the advice to install a .8 spring (although he has since changed it.)
- It has been said many times on here that the warm idle should be set at 3% CO with mods/ cat delete. My understanding from at least 2 experts on here is that if you leave the 02 connected with a non standard setup then it fights and readjusts your CO settings. For the garage to admit to not even having looked at it...
- He road tested it and said it was good. But the setting "changed" when I drove off. His road testing was 'butt feel' measured not with a AFR gauge of any kind.
- He recommended the Turbosmart as one he knows and has fitted before. If so how come it didn't fit right?
Nathan, I wouldn't tell an experienced expert how to do their job. But if they ignore the maker's recommendations then it doesn't work, and their own way is clearly not working, and then after a 2nd visit still no luck, then something is wrong here!
The fitting of the modified turbo unit is a separate issue. If all tuning procedures were followed thoroughly and we had these problems then I wouldn't be so upset. we could just go back to the standard turbo. As it is, everything has to be checked again to establish a base line. He didn't even do dyno readings or take notes of my settings before his work. That annoys me too!
PS: I do not want to get involved in data recordings and PC programs myself, I pay 'the professional's to do the work for me.
09-02-2007, 02:39 PM
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1. Firstly he told me that the new turbo did NOT need running in. (I insisted he did anyway after advice from the maker).
2. He set the CO to 0.8. Even I know we need to set at 3%.
3. He didn't know you have to disconnect the O2/ Lambda sensor (he told me he hadn't even checked!) otherwise the settings will change back.
4. Although he dyno'd the car, he did NOT measure any AFR's. He says he doesn't work by them.
5. He attempted to set up my modified (Brian Leask) WUR without following the above.
6. He fitted a new 48mm Turbosmart wastegate (not the Tial most use) and which doesn't line up with our standard wastegate pipe so cut it without telling me first.
Are these genuine or understandable mistakes? Was his approach logical or sensible? Or is this guy clueless and lazy, and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near my car?
2. He set the CO to 0.8. Even I know we need to set at 3%.
3. He didn't know you have to disconnect the O2/ Lambda sensor (he told me he hadn't even checked!) otherwise the settings will change back.
4. Although he dyno'd the car, he did NOT measure any AFR's. He says he doesn't work by them.
5. He attempted to set up my modified (Brian Leask) WUR without following the above.
6. He fitted a new 48mm Turbosmart wastegate (not the Tial most use) and which doesn't line up with our standard wastegate pipe so cut it without telling me first.
Are these genuine or understandable mistakes? Was his approach logical or sensible? Or is this guy clueless and lazy, and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near my car?
09-02-2007, 02:40 PM
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Mark
I hear you frustaration. That is so unfortunate I thought he was supposed to be some sort of turbo "guru". I don't really understand all the technical stuff but from what you say it does sound like he's been a either lazy or slightly incompetent.
As for whether to go back, Nathan makes a really good point - how does the workshop look, state of his tools etc and what's his general demeanour. Is he defensive or willing and wanting to get your car sorted to his customers satisfaction? If not then I'd walk but if he seems like a genuine guy then maybe give him one last chance.
Hope that helps.
Must do that curry soon too!
Anthony
I hear you frustaration. That is so unfortunate I thought he was supposed to be some sort of turbo "guru". I don't really understand all the technical stuff but from what you say it does sound like he's been a either lazy or slightly incompetent.
As for whether to go back, Nathan makes a really good point - how does the workshop look, state of his tools etc and what's his general demeanour. Is he defensive or willing and wanting to get your car sorted to his customers satisfaction? If not then I'd walk but if he seems like a genuine guy then maybe give him one last chance.
Hope that helps.
Must do that curry soon too!
Anthony
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09-02-2007, 05:36 PM
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I to am not that up on the technical stuff. The chap that Mark took the car to is quite a respected chap in the Porsche world in the UK but I have my own opinions. I really feel sorry for Mark, the chap should know far better than this. There are to many so called experts out there that really know nothing. Personally I would walk away and get a another to rectify it but the the problem is deciding which a another is better than the **** that you have already been to. I would put my money on Andy at Fearnsport, Silverstone.
09-02-2007, 07:15 PM
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HI mark, I am a porsche tech and also work on B.M.W and M.B.Z cars. As a tech I think this guy did what made sense in his own mind. You have to check the A/r otherwise you dont know what is going on in the cylinders, and you could be on the edge or even down on power if not where it needs to be.
At this point if he has not followed what works and gone by the instructions, he will chase his tail trying to make it right. My advise to you is get your car out of there before more settings are changed based on no facts.
At this point if he has not followed what works and gone by the instructions, he will chase his tail trying to make it right. My advise to you is get your car out of there before more settings are changed based on no facts.
09-04-2007, 01:33 PM
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Mark, I am totally with you on the "I paid to have this done" & this is awful. I have btdt too many times.
I doubt if the turbo is causing the problem. What does Kevin or Stephen say? Afaik I thought the only damage would be to the oil seal providing he fitted the turbo as you are meant to fit a factory K26 turbo.
Let us know the answers to my previous questions although I think you are going to have to go elsewhere.
I hear the dyno at Silverstone is very good but I am not aware that they are 930 or 964t tuners.
I doubt if the turbo is causing the problem. What does Kevin or Stephen say? Afaik I thought the only damage would be to the oil seal providing he fitted the turbo as you are meant to fit a factory K26 turbo.
Let us know the answers to my previous questions although I think you are going to have to go elsewhere.
I hear the dyno at Silverstone is very good but I am not aware that they are 930 or 964t tuners.
09-04-2007, 01:40 PM
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Nathan (and all)
I have tried to get him and the americans to talk but no luck so far...
I have had various opinions from several technicians both sides of 'the pond' and everyone has a different opinion on mixture settings.....
The garage has been quite helpful in their attitude. Remember he is very long term experienced and a wealth of knowledge on these cars, so he is having difficulty understanding/ agreeing with some of the suggestions, although its extra difficult with me (a non-techie) acting as a go-between! He is however keen to listen...
The car is going back in tomorrow for a full installation check (it may be something is crimped, dislodged, not fitted properly) and tune up. I hope that the experts manage to speak as well.
I'll let you know we do, later in the week.
I have tried to get him and the americans to talk but no luck so far...
I have had various opinions from several technicians both sides of 'the pond' and everyone has a different opinion on mixture settings.....
The garage has been quite helpful in their attitude. Remember he is very long term experienced and a wealth of knowledge on these cars, so he is having difficulty understanding/ agreeing with some of the suggestions, although its extra difficult with me (a non-techie) acting as a go-between! He is however keen to listen...
The car is going back in tomorrow for a full installation check (it may be something is crimped, dislodged, not fitted properly) and tune up. I hope that the experts manage to speak as well.
I'll let you know we do, later in the week.
09-04-2007, 03:39 PM
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Been there, done that...
Remove the lambda completely. Stephen will tell you what needs to be done.
Set CO to 3%.
End of.
The lambda control is just used to control partial throttle/idle on these cars, an emissions fudge (i.e. lambda =1). It is not a proper A/F control system and will cause all sorts of issues if you set CO away from the stock 0.8 (or whatever it is).
Done all the iterations personally so save your time and just ripe the bloody thing out.
And remember everyone who is charging you for a service IS an expert...
Remove the lambda completely. Stephen will tell you what needs to be done.
Set CO to 3%.
End of.
The lambda control is just used to control partial throttle/idle on these cars, an emissions fudge (i.e. lambda =1). It is not a proper A/F control system and will cause all sorts of issues if you set CO away from the stock 0.8 (or whatever it is).
Done all the iterations personally so save your time and just ripe the bloody thing out.
And remember everyone who is charging you for a service IS an expert...
09-05-2007, 03:48 PM
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He admitted today, the lamda was still plugged in!
He doesn't agree with setting the idle CO to 3%. He says it will only change the idle and not do anything with the mixture higher up the rev/ load range!
He has not spoken to any of the experts, telephone numbers that I gave to him!
I insisted he does it my way, am collecting car tomorrow. We shall see!
He doesn't agree with setting the idle CO to 3%. He says it will only change the idle and not do anything with the mixture higher up the rev/ load range!
He has not spoken to any of the experts, telephone numbers that I gave to him!
I insisted he does it my way, am collecting car tomorrow. We shall see!
