pcar964

Completely disagree with your assertion that both the 964T and 993 are maintenance intensive. That's absolutely not the case in my experience.

I used a 993 as a daily driver AND track car for 4 years - aside from tires/brakes and oil changes, not much else was required. It was incredibly reliable and gave me few problems while I owned it - and it had well over 100k miles by the time I sold it. The wiring harness recall was likely done 15 years ago on most 993s, and there are VERY few problems with them remaining. As for engines going out at 80k miles, huh? Are you referring to the SAI ports clogging on '96+ cars - because if so, that's purely an emissions issue and does not mean the engine is unhealthy in any way.

As for the 964T, they are some of the most well-sorted cars Porsche ever produced. Drivetrain-wise, they were refined and perfected for 15 years since the original 930, and have very few weak points. The WUR is about the only part that might require attention on higher-mileage cars, or lower-mileage cars that were infrequently driven. Engine rebuilds are only usually required on cars putting out big HP - stock, they're extremely under-stressed engines with 7:1 compression and relatively low boost. Aside from the occasional random turbo/intercooler-related hose needing replacement, or the valve adjustments every 15k (just like every other pre-'89 911), I'm not sure what maintenance items you're referring to when you say he should "worry about maintenance."

TRINITONY

^^ 6 year old, has to be a record..lol

cobalt

Well after 6 years i guess I have to say something. I will start with the CIS. If you can say without hesitation that the CIS system is without fault I guess we can stop here

I have owned many CIS cars and plain and simple either you have a good one or bad there is no in-between. When you have CIS issues you have a headache a big humongous mechanically injected headache. Engine rebuilds are more related to maintenance and how you drive the car than anything else. The turbos are high strung they have far more issues with fuel pumps, CIS vacuum leaks, Hoses popping off and then there are those who continually are annoyed by the LSD noise which some of us learn to live with.

Turbo engines run extremely hot. It is a well known fact that all 3.6 liter air cooled 911's have valve guide issues eventually due to the greater heat generated by the larger displacement. Turbos need to be watched more closely. Otherwise these are older cars and require continuous care or you will pay for it in one large bill eventually.

As far as 993's the port clogging is an issue if you live in a state that reads your OBD II. In those states this is rather costly to repair. All 3.6 motors suffer from this when the driver doesn't wind it out often enough but the OBDII cars can be an issue when you fail emissions testing. The 993's have had issues with failing hydraulic lifters and the same valve issues of the earlier 964. My experience has seen cars have lifters go as early as 30,000 miles but normally not until 60,000 and others have gone far longer without issue but eventually it catches up.

How many miles I could care less about years did you drive your 993 on the track?. I have over 14,000 track miles on my 964 C2 over the past 4 years and I agree the engine so far has been outstanding. I have seen first hand 993 engines detonate at 13,000 miles on the track. Some go forever others not so long. If this were a 964 turbo I am sure i would be watching my shifts more carefully and would be considering a rebuild in another 10,000 miles I don't think I have to worry about my C2 since last LD and Comp numbers were near perfect but it will happen eventually.

Lastly all these cars are getting older and parts are drying out and getting old. The 964's are seeing signs no matter how many miles or how they are driven of oil return hoses leaking leading to costly replacement of very expensive hoses. I am sure the 993's will be seeing this same issue eventually since the part hasn't changed. There are many things that can become an issue buying a good example makes a huge difference.

Call it as you see it but my experience says that part of owning any air cooled 911 is properly maintaining and keeping up with issues. Every car is different but they do have problems some come from lack of use others age, and many from poor maintenance habits.

I still look beyond all of that and enjoy these cars far more than most any other model Porsche and almost all other cars manufactured.

After 6 years I think this thread is ready to sleep again.

Frank 993 C4S

+1

I say we keep it going.....

BTW - the OP last posted on Rennlist about 4 years ago.

pcar964

Didn't check the age of the thread

Regardless, Cobalt, pretty much every observation you made could just as easily be applied to ANY Porsche made in or before the '90s. And since we're a Porsche forum, I'm fairly certain most everyone here understands that these cars are not as cheap to maintain as a Toyota. It's a given that when various tubes, hoses, et al, fail, they will be expensive.

That being said, I don't believe the 964 Turbo, or ESPECIALLY the 993, to be anything other than utterly reliable and trouble-free in relative terms compared to other older Porsches.

cobalt

We are all allowed our opinions. I basically said what you just did however, IMO the most bulletproof air cooled 911 I have owned or had the experience of dealing with has been the SC's. Even with the CIS issues they are one of the few 911's that I have seen repeatedly go 100-200k miles without even needing a top end. You cannot say that about any of the 3.6 liter cars. Maybe you experience tells you so but mine is different.

pcar964

I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, but my experience has been different. I just hate to see people scared away from owning these great cars due to advice that's a little too much on the safe side. If I had listened to the advice of (some) Porsche guys, I never would have bought my first Porsche. Here are some examples of the advice I had to ignore to buy each of my previous Porsches:

• 944 - "The timing belt will explode and the rebuild will cost more than the price of the car!"
• 944 turbo - "Take the 944 and multiply the problems and maintenance costs by 10! They're a nightmare!"
• 911 SC - "The CIS is archaic technology, they never run right!"
• 993 - "The valve guides necessitate rebuilds every 60-70k miles!"
• 964T (etc, etc, etc)

My 944 was a bulletproof car for me for years. The 944 turbo was a dream, fast, reliable, economical, easy to work on, etc. The SC was bulletproof. The 993 was bulletproof. The 964T has been bulletproof. And I put a LOT of miles on all my Porsches (except my 964T, which is a weekend only car). I'm knocking on wood here, and maybe I've just been "lucky" with good cars throughout my tenure as a Porsche owner - but if you find a solid and well-maintained car, I don't think there's any reason to be scared of owning one of these fine machines. Sure some of the parts are expensive, but on the par they're easy to work on, relatively simple, and very overbuilt. The 964T is no exception!

If I had to drive my 964T to California and back, today, I wouldn't have any hesitation. Can't say that about many cars in general, let alone cars in this category

cobalt

Well ironically the most reliable Porsche I have owned in recent years has been my 928 GTS. Some will laugh at that proposition.

You might say my advice is a bit alarmist, I say realistic. What you listed are not what i am saying. There are some truths to them but not the way you put them. I don't think I said anything that should scare people away from buying. I am not saying these cars will blow up I am saying they will have issues since they are older and getting older all the time and each car is unique to itself not only for model specific known issues but maintenance. My turbo has been a very reliable car but it has over 100 pages of records for things repaired over the life of the car and it has 38xxx miles on it. The GTS has about 45 pages I have every record for both. These were hand built to some degree and to say you will have no issues is not true. Some may not have any issues but on average used older cars do.

Metal Guru

+1. If you enjoy a great running car with everything functioning as it should a lot of work will need to be done to your Turbo. I have the bills to prove it!

A trip to any assembly plant will show that all cars are hand assembled to a certain degree, especially when the car reaches final assembly.

Porsches are assembled pretty much like any other mass produced car. The bodies, starting with the 964 series, are manufactured in a highly automated body shop and those bodies are painted by robots. To accomplish this tolerances on bodies and trim must be tight, which yields good fit and finish.

The hand work is in engine building and interior trimming and not much different than a Rolls Royce in that respect.

cobalt

Actually that started with the 993. The 964's were the last of the hand finished cars and were painted with the 26 stage process which was incredibly laborious. They called in the Japanese to help them build an automated system. Many 964's were finished out of sequence because they would remove them from the production line to fit and finish parts that were not as tight as they should be.

By going to a robotic approach Porsche was able to introduce the 993 at a savings of $5k a car over the 964.

Metal Guru

Anthony, I remember reading back in the day that when the 964 was launched Porsche had installed the modern body shop. It was expensive (approximately $75 M) and it raised the break even point to the point that the company was in financial trouble. There was a worldwide economic slump and the price of the 964 was so much more than the old Carrera, killing sales.

[/QUOTE]

Wonder how that worked for them?
Ford tried that with the mid-90's CT-20 Escort. They had Jap suppliers build the body shop. Problem is the Jap philosophy was build it cheap and fix it constantly, which is not the Ford or U.S. auto industry philosophy. End result was a lot of equipment had to be brought up to standard and the Ford V.P. responsible for the decision to go offshore had to fall on his sword.

cobalt

You may be correct about the bodies however the entire automated approach was not implemented until the 993. The 964's were still hand painted I am sure of that. Assembly after the bodies were completed was still done the old fashioned way and did not change until the 993 boxster days.

justin-in-athens

check out this vid: http://www.worldcarfans.com/11012072...-process-video