JBH

Mercifully, Adrian deleted a thread where the work and cost of a PPI On a C2 Turbo were debated. Having read some of the dialog in those threads, I began to wonder if the cost quoted for PPIs matches the amount of effort it takes to do a complete and comprehensive evaluation.

A couple years ago, an individual looking to buy my C2T had a PPI done at a reputable shop in Houston. Total cost $500. This included a compression and leakdown test, which accounted for a majority of the cost. It was explained to me that the labor costs are high because: (1) the amount of equipment that must be removed and replaced, (2) difficulty in getting to the plugs in the rear, and (3) actual time it takes to run the test.

Is this consistent with what others have seen for cost specific to these cars?

TUNER

I paid 280 for mine on the 3.6 at a porsche dealer in PA.
cheers
Bryan

billkenny

The cost of a PPI would be around $185.00 for the same check that we the dealer would do to certify a car for Porsche PreOwned warranty. A compression check on a 964 turbo would be around 300.00. Leak down should cost a few dollars more. Make sure you get a copy of the form to be used to check the car over so you know all the inspections points. If you want a deeper check be sure to ask for it. PPI are great things as long as it is clear what you are requesting.
bill

cobalt

I spoke to five people when i bought my 3.6. All were in CA, I in NJ. I received 5 different answers. They ranged from "yeah I will check it out don't worry" to "I check everything in great detail and use a check sheet to cover every inch of the car". However, all did say that they do not do a leak down or compression unless they feel it was necessary. The person I used charged me $200 for my PPI it would be an additional $350 if a leak down would need to be done. They told me that if they felt the leak down was necessary that they would call to discuss things first.

The individual i used told me that he would check everything in great detail and gave me a list of every paint nick or blemish (I had a hard time finding what he listed they were so minute) He faxed me the check sheet on how much tread depth the tires had left the temp the AC was blowing a list of paint blemishes specific info regarding brake pad and rotor thickness and points of concern and of coarse the info about the leaking B&B headers which were installed less than 1000 miles before. Finally we discussed his overall opinion of the car.

All in all very thorough. I have no complaints - the B&B's but I knew about it in advance and had the chance to argue with the PO about it. he came down on the price so I will use that money to fix it soon.

Adrian

The answer really is how long is a piece of string?
A full and comprehensive PPI (I do not include compression and leakdown checks as part of a PPI) takes a good hour to check all the paperwork and match everything. A good 2 hours including removing the panelling underneath and another 30 minutes systems check and a test drive.
Between 3 and 4 hours including test drive and excluding compression and leak down tests.
To me a PPI is an expert looking for the things that the sales people tend not to look at or for. I will not carry out a PPI unless there is a lifter or pit available either.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

cobalt

I did forget to mention, as Adrian did, that when they removed the lower panels on the car, they had discovered that the left side rear bumper had been resprayed . When I asked him if it was standard practice to do so he said yes. He also informed me that he removed the wheel well covers to verify that no other areas of the car had been painted and to check to see that no damage had been sustained by the car in that area. He was not sure if the rear fender had been repainted so he brought in a friend who was a concourse judge to verify that it had in fact not been resprayed.

JBH

Unless it is high miles, I would not consider a compression or leakdown test on a N/A car, but a Turbo...well that makes me more cautious, simply because the engine can get so hot and it is so expensive to repair. The extra 1% added to the purchase price buys a lot of piece of mind.

When I had my PPI done, the front and wheel well panels were not removed, but that is one I will put on my checklist for next time.

Cobalt: just for future reference, could you please PM me with the name of the shop that did such a thorough job on your car? He sounds like gem.

cobalt

I will look it up when I get home, he is in the Oakland area so I don't know if you want to travel so far.

I do admit that I was very lucky to have found someone so thorough. I normally do not like to purchase things sight unseen, but took a big chance. I had no time to travel and really wanted this particular car.

I was very fortunate. I had the oportunity to talk to the previous owner to the person I bought the car from. Since the car was already sold to the current owner he had no reason to lie to me. So I entered into the deal knowing the car was a gem that had been babied by its owner and serviced by Andial for most of it's life. The current owner at the time only had the car for 6 months and about 1500 miles, so all I had to worry about was the last 6 months. A lot can happen in 1500 miles but it appears I was lucky.

Funny thing, the person I bought the car from did not care too much for the feel of the car and its limited power. So he sold the car at a $5k loss and bought a TT. With a little investment (significantly less than the difference in value of the TT over the 965) the car is now at 400 fwhp, soon to be increased, along with a new suspension. Rick Damen from Damen Motorsports commented that he personally felt it was one of, if not the nicest turbo he had ever driven. Funny world. His loss my gain.

Adrian

There is usually quite a bit of evidence to an experienced person that an engine has problems long before needing to order a compression or leakdown check. For these checks are to confirm the evidence which a good PPI type person should pick.
The first example is oil in the exhaust system. With a cold engine check the pipes left and right for oil residue.
Blowing smoke is another.
Poor idle characteristics is another.
Hissing when you shut the engine down another.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

pig4bill

Cobalt, please post the name of that shop in the Oakland area. I may be looking at a car in that area, and a first rate PPI like you got sounds like it's well worth the money.

C2 Turbo

First to answer your question,a PPI could range any where from $200-$800.Having recently bought a 1991 C2 turbo myself i would like to mention few things that could be very helpful for the new buyers.Here are the steps that i would suggest/recommend for a PPI,
1)-Get the history on the car and insist on talking to the previous owner,regardless of who you buying the car from ? btw did i mention talking to the previous owner !
2)-Agree on the purchase price
3)-Let the shop do the visual inspection first making sure the car is as good as the owner describes it.The visual inspection should atleast comment on
(a): Any chips,dings,paint/accident work,condition of the tires and wheels
(b)-condition of the interior,like the seats,floor mats and stuff like that
(c):Any visible oil leaks or any smoke on start ups and stuff like that.
So once you have gone pass the visual stage then you should go to the 2nd stage of the PPI.Now this next stage gets into more details like,
4)-Have them fill out a check list of various items including all the mechanicals of the car.
5)-Jack up the car and inspect
(d)-Remove all the belly pans and look for the leaks.
(e)-Remove the wheels and inspect the brakes & rotors
(f)-Look at the tires and have them comment on the alignment
(g)-Have them look for the signs of any damage repair like new control arms or any new suspension parts including any signs of over spray.
6)-Transmission check including the clutch play or any shift grinds
During my Residency training i was always reminded " YOU DON'T SEE WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW" meaning if a mechanic doesn't know what he's looking for he won't even know what he just missed.
7)- So the car seems fine and the intial PPI looks very promising so now is the time you should consider getting the remaining PPI ( compression & leakdown ) done and complete the PPI.
8)- Have a reputable Body shop look for any body damage
I would also suggest to breakdown the cost of the PPI into 3 stages that you have already agreed upon with the shop service advisor,
Items 1)- to 3)- xxxx numbers of $$$ & once the car passes this stage then go to 2nd satage that includes,
Items (4) to (6) for xxx number of $$$ & once the car clears the 2nd stage then proceed to the 3rd stage that includes,
Items (8)- Pay for compression & leakdown if every thing else checks out fine.This way you won't pay say $600 for a PPI only to find out the car has front end damage or got bad oil leaks,got it.
Well guys i din't mean to write a novel here but IMHO if a PPI is done this way it will save you quite a bit of headache,time and ofcourse money.
I will also strongly recommend that you have every thing in writing as later on it would be your word against theirs,not good.
Any comments/suggestions !

emilios

Guys,

with all due respect, why so much fuss over a PPI - especially so at prices around $35-40k? Don't forget that these cars are 10-years old plus, and that previous owners who owned them at a much earlier stage of their lives paid tons more money to acquire them - so they were bound to be cherished and well looked-after. Some could have been abused or involved in accidents because of the handling characteristics and engine power but if a bumper has been re-sprayed or a suspension component has been replaced, it does not necessarily mean that the car was rolled-over or written-off! Remember, (almost) everything is repairable.

IMHO, as long as you like your candidate car(s), by all means yes do get a PPI, take it for an extended test drive but don't get over sensitive over very minor issues such as a panel re-spray on a component change, especially if it was done/repaired properly and professionally. I have seen cars in absolutely perfect / A1 condition being partially or wholly re-sprayed because of deep paint scratches (remember Porsches also attract the jealous/malicious types) or stains from bird droppings.

We all take pride and joy in our cars, but we must also remember that they share road space with millions of other cars/users/drivers, and they share at least the same risk as anything else on the streets.

Happy Porsche turbo motoring

Best regards

Emilios

jeff91C2T

Why do a PPI? Well, you can use me as an example (to do one).

I bought my 91 without a PPI. 6 months later I was in the shop and found the motor had a broken head stud and also a broken piston ring. Both of which were identified WITH a leakdown test when I was in the shop (for a bad turbo). The motor ran excellent with both a busted ring and head stud. Idle was rock solid, didn't smoke at start up (ever), and burned no oil. Go figure!

Regarding time/cost to do a leak down. I can have the whole top of the engine apart in ~15 minutes for access to the plugs. Seems to me $300 is a bit high for a leak down/compression test. However, I do have a lot of practice at "disassebmbly"!!!

My thought on PPI's are it's money well spent. Especially if you consider how fragile these motors are (ie bad head studs and busted rings).

JBH

Jeff:

Who did the work on your motor?

If the motor ran great, good idle, no smoke, no oil...why did it go to the shop? I assume they showed you the problems.

jeff91C2T

Bad turbo is what got me into the shop, then one thing led to another. What caused the turbo to go bad was a bolt had backed out of the top cover, fell into the oil pump drive. The drive gear jammed shearing off both bolts so the scavenge pump wasn't working (eventually causing the turbo to fail). You should have seen the smoke cloud....impressive!

The motor was put together by a local guy (Jeff Heinz). I've got lots of before and after pics if your interested.

JBH, are you going to Rainbonnet this year? There's a group of us heading down from Seattle. It's a great weekend if you've got the time!