thomasandersen

Any suggestions on what's the general premium would for a PTS 3,6 964 turbo, even if an disliked color?

I understand it's hard to post something without knowing the color, but in general it's my understanding that PTS colors bring a significant premium, or at last make cars more wanted.

Thanks for sharing thoughts

Scott Dunavant

Depends if the car has been restored. Underside presentation is very important. Corrosion, Carfax, etc....

bweSteve

for a "disliked color", give it a 20% premium, given all other factors (history / service records, maintenance, etc) are equal.

That may shock you,... but as an ENTHUSIAST, I only put an increased value on that .3 cu in engine bump (& the few other bibs&bobs Porche improved) as worth 20% more. In fact, for me, that is exactly the % number I used over 20 years ago when I went out looking for a 964 Turbo. I drove quite a few of both 3.3 & 3.6, and sure there was extra torque,... but the rest of the car was so close (& that's just me,... & maybe I'm just not such a "discernible" driver). So MOST importantly, the shape, quality & condition of the car were much more important to me, verses a eventual re-sale value in the future. That's because I love the car & want to own one long term, and enjoy tens of thousands of miles with like minded friends,... making memories.

But I understand the landscape has changed over the last 20 yrs,... and that we now have the insertion of "Investors" into the market mix (there have always been enthusiasts & collectors).

so here's my take ...

Buyers are of several different types. A "Investor" person is someone who is looking at that purchase price MUCH differently than a person who is a long term Collector (never mind the enthusiast who hates paying a higher % more, for a car they want to drive / experience, because they just plain love it),... so a Disliked Color will be important to BOTH the investor & collector.... hence a much lower % bump imo.

Here's my line of thinking, if a well maintained, elongated ownership 3.3 in ... lets say White,... (with moderate mileage) can sell for $190k,... then a disliked color (you use the term disliked, and of course that is in the eye of the beholder, but lets just assume you are right in considering that it is "generally" considered a disliked color) ... by my above calculation, that $190k brings a $38k bump to $228k (over a similar 3.3). well then guess what,... THAT color just became VERY well liked, because there are investor folks out there who will ignore that disliked color & now they believe it becomes a good buy. So yea, 20% is way low. But that's MY view of the 964 Turbo world. I simply don't care what the re-sale value is. My Guards Red is fine (it wasn't the only color I would have taken). I really didn't even have any "disliked" colors on a list.

I know the 3.6 owners out there will lay out all the reasons why the car is much better than a 3.3,... but I'm also certain they would agree that much of it has to do with the fact that it is a much lower production, more rare, more collectible, and thus simply worth much more than 20% more than a 3.3. We all love what we own, for the reasons we chose one. Hopefully we can just respect that & get out there & drive some miles. I did 220 miles yesterday!! (This year I've been asked to plan out a full days PCA driving Tour. So I'm including some of my own favorite roads, and adding / mixing in others that I had not previously driven or considered,... plus identify a break-spot for mid morning, then a lunch restaurant at the end. Soooo much fun).

Best of luck in whatever your approach is to your search.

cobalt

Color is what sells these days. I agree I always tell people to find a mechanically sound car with no hidden issues before focusing on a color. However I have watched time and time again the lesser car in a unique color sell for more than a more solid car in a common color.

I am not going to get into a 3.3 vs 3.6 debate. However numbers speak to some and clearly there are less than half as many 3.6's made vs 3.3's. There were probably more unique colors painted on 3.3's than 3.6's especially in the US. Now here is where it gets tricky and the PTS thing is a bit of a misnomer. All US spec 3.6T's were sold as 1994MY cars. More than half of the 335 3.6T's came through as 718 coded 93's changing the vin from a 93 P code to an R coded 94. However that creates this odd occurrence where you can have 2 94 US spec cars in the same color and one can be PTS the other a standard or optional color. Many of the 93's were ordered in late 92 early 93 so they were built using a different 93 MY color palette than those ordered in late 93 using the 94 color palette. Many colors we see on the early 718 coded 3.6T's came with their standard paint code. Some of the non 718 coded cars were painted with 93 colors that weren't offered in 94 so they came through as PTS irrespective of the fact that some 718 coded cars or RoW 93's came in that same color. Most all PTS turbos used colors from prior years palette's.

So the question is what is a unique color worth? A few years back I showed my turbo at an event called the Bridge. A rather wealthy individual that loved the color of my car and its overall condition offered to buy it on the spot. Market value for a clean 3.6T was pushing into the $400k range at the time. To my shock he offered me $600k as is. I was quite tempted and looking back maybe should have taken it. Cobalt is a relatively unique but not PTS unique color. Maybe a dozen tops WW painted with varying interiors but only three in the US all different interiors and only 2 in the world with black interior which is my personal favorite with cobalt. So I guess that is reason enough or not? I do know that the other cobalt over black will be coming up for sale soon so I guess that will tell me if I made a good deal or not. However I decided I don't want to sell so it doesn't matter. My wife insists if it hits $1M I have to sell but I don't think I have much to worry about at least not now.

Assuming a clean low mile original example in a unique PTS color and nicely optioned there is no reason why $600k is out of line. Several standard and unique color 3.6T's have sold in the high $400's to mid $500's in varying conditions lately. Add unique color excellent condition and I suspect it will bring more. At a min a unique color will always grab attention and make for an easier sale. Although keep in mind a car that is tired and needs a lot of work will sell for considerably less. Figure what it would cost to bring the car to mechanically sound and cosmetically perfect condition and deduct that from the price and a bit more due to the fact it will no longer be original.

GL

jp884

Great advice Anthony, although it would have been hard for me to turn down $600k on the spot for a 3.6. That being said you are spot on when it comes to color, I bought that amethyst 3.3 with magenta interior solely based on color. Knowing that I would have to spend another $75k and a years worth of time in the shop to get it sorted out. I probably could have bought a no issues ready to enjoy sorted out car for less money but the heart wants what it wants.

das76

It'll be interesting to see what the premium is on this Ferrari Fly Yellow 3.3L: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...-911-turbo-71/

cobalt

I think they are smoking something with the $529k price. Nice example but a fair amount of lipstick. Why would a car with such few miles need new rotors? (incorrectly installed 3.6T rotors up front instead of 3.3) Underside of frunk redone. Incorrect radio, keys, air compressor. Fuel pump cover repainted incorrect color. Some stickers are missing and some seem to be repalced with copies. Has later style 993 door seals. yellow cad hardware that should be black in some places. Spring plates were redone using a yellow zinc paint and lots of small pieces replaced. Is it FLY yellow? FLY = Ferrari light yellow this appears to be closer to speed yellow. Possibly a different Ferrari yellow?

I would need to look closer but the front fender appears to have been removed at one time. Usually the sealing tape fender to tub is painted but shows in the door jamb.

All this tells me it is far from an original condition 12k mile car and they are banking on the PTS to bring all the money. Do your research carefully could be worthy of a premium but how much based on what was done.

RapidGT

Kinda strange that between when the car was sold at RM it appears to have been restored a bit. Some of the stickers around the car have been replaced some incorrect. Also in the RM listing it had the correct toolkit and air compressor.

https://rmsothebys.com/auctions/am18...-911-turbo-33/

cobalt

I recall looking at this car back in 18. There has been a lot of work done to it. Even the seats no longer have some creases and the paint sticker has changed and reads differently than before. Something doesn't add up.

bweSteve

all the color data, history, and value speculation is fine & dandy ... but it strikes me that all that information is most important & relevant to Collectors & Investors. ONLY those people who are concerned with what the car is worth (obviously when they buy, but MOSTLY when they own & are considering selling, because most everyone wants to believe they can make money on a car (now or in the future), or at a minimum "own it for free", for however long they plan to keep it.

We're coming from a few decades ago where everyone just knew & expected that cars depreciate, and now (today) those same thoughts sit deep in the back of their heads, and thus here we are in this new age where cars are / can be investments,.... well, for me it just makes all the details on WHY a car will make someone money down the road, have a salty taste in my mouth. It has tainted my love for the history & stories of the Porsche & Piech families (all those books on my shelves that I read back in the 80's), and the engineering heart & soul they put into their product. Nowadays I just don't care as much. I want to stick my head in the sand & just focus on my own driving pleasure. It's why I haven't been coming onto RL that much any more either. All I see & hear are discussions on what some Porsche variant is worth & speculating on whether they'll all go up in value in the future.

It's guys like Cobalt (& quite a few of you others on here who have bought & owned for a long time, and DID it because you LOVE the car), drive it, and make memories in it,... that get my respect as an Owner & Enthusiast.

{rant off} ...
... I'll just go back to doing what I love ... thank goodness I have the PCA club, and lots of friends who still love to go driving. I just spent the last 3 months building a 104 mile backroad driving tour (that we usually get 40 to 50 cars to sign up for, everytime we do one,... and we do about 14 of these a year). I started out with google maps, then went out two times just to try those roads out. 30% of them were crap (lots of stopping, turning around, going to find a different road, etc). So then the next month (which was March & April) I spent modifying the route to weave around onto the good roads. THEN the most fun part, was grabbing 3 or 4 of my best driving friends, and doing test runs. We not only do a paper turn-by-turn, but also put the entire route into the "Scenic" App, so a voice can speak each turn to you. Its SUCH a great way to pay most attention to driving, and let the navigation be secondary. My wife loves going on these runs too, since its so easy for the person sitting in the passenger seat (or even those times where she takes one of the 911's & I take the other). Anyway, those test runs end at the restaurant where our club will all eat lunch. ... so we get to test out the crab cakes too. Done that twice in the this past month. To be honest, every time I make these runs, I have NO CLUE what color my car is (oh, and just to poke the bear Anthony, I like my Aqua Blue better than Cobalt. hehehe,... just messin' with ya)

peterpullin

same to me: own, drive, love it. bought a cheap polar silver/black long ago. my favorite colour for the turbo. when ever i have time i drive it. would never pay a premium for any colour. or option. if the seller asks for it: not my future car.
life is so easy…

cobalt

Steve,

On your GT3 I don't think there is a better color than your Aqua blue. Very rare and gorgeous color. Not sure how it would loo on a 964T. I have a friend with an RS in the same color and nearly purchased the identical car to yours. I was driving by Jack Daniels Porsche one day with my wife and saw it in the window. It actually looked quite similar to cobalt and Cindy said I could buy it if it was cobalt. To my chagrin it was Aqua and she rescinded the offer even though she agreed it looked fantastic. It is a keeper no doubt.

I talk with my son who as you know works at a dealership and when he goes to PCNA training these topics always seem to come up. It seems to change from region to region. But PTS is all the rage these days, As you might know Porsche has suspended PTS for the next few months because nearly every car ordered is PTS. There are some hideously ugly PTS cars sitting in some dealerships people purchase, they arrive and decide they don't like it so they sit on the floor with asking prices of $150k over and they nearly all sell quickly.

Yesterday we had NNJR's annual Welcome to the Club event. A 2 event day. Concours in the morning and gimmick rally in the afternoon followed by dinning at a great restaurant. At the concours there were some amazing cars some in very unique colors. A gorgeous Ipanema blue 997 that was flawless grabbed a lot of attention. People all gravitate to the unique colors and it becomes very apparent at these events.

What was interesting was the Charity we contribute all proceeds from the event to brings interested patients out to see the cars. A highlight of the event. Interestingly as non Porsche people they all gravitated to my GT4 in of all colors guards red. It might have been the wing which is usually a winner at these events or the track numbers but they unanimously picked the guards red and they all loved the color. When I told them I had to remove over 150 rubber marks from the paint they were all upset and wanted to see it with the rubber marks. IMO I think it looks best that way as well. So it just shows how it is all about perspective. Sadly the #1 condition car is now a #2 after hard track driving and will be seeing more abuse this weekend at NJMP. When on track I don't care what color in fact my favorite track car is the Sh!tBox which as you know is far from pretty but gets lots of attention. Although the upgrade to the double sheer 991 uprights with the club sport racing brakes makes this one amazing handling Porsche with brakes that never fade and incredible stopping power.

No doubt we are seeing a huge surge in investors and buyers just learning about Porsche and they all are moving in whatever direction social media points them. Sadly times have changed and the day of the enthusiast as we knew it for all these decades is dying off and making way for RWB's, Singers and things like this Hybrid that are taking over. Anything unique is a huge seller to the uninitiated. But IMO things like this are just hideous and only made to have something nobody else does.


Tedson built car currently at my friend's shop. They went crazy over the maritime blue RSR project I call the Blue Meanie and felt I should be able to sell it for $750k For the workmanship but mostly the color.

I can't believe I have no pics of the GT4 from yesterday but it did quite well against some serious competition. I have been doing this for too long I now can take just about any car and win or come darn close to winning with only a few hours of detailing the areas the judges actually look at. My competition spent at least an additional 40 hrs detailing and still couldn't beet me.



To me it is the experience but I never said I had all my marbles. Each car offers a unique but all Porsche experience. As you said when I am driving I have no idea of what the cars color is just the feeling it gives me while driving.