I have two 1989 944 turbos ( with fairly low milege ) and will be selling one soon. My thought is to purchase a 1994 911 turbo. What is a good price? Also, is there any maintainance issues I should be aware of before purchasing? Also, how much better is the 993, or is it? Thanks for your help.

 

In this forum, I am certain you will find a preference for the 964 Turbo and for good reasons:
* classic looks
* single turbo thrust
* low production numbers
* 2 Wheel Drive

On the other hand, the 993 TT offers:
* less turbo lag
* better fuel management system
* 4WD
* more modern setup and function
* good support network and availability of parts
* no more valve adjustments!

 

Having come from a 944 Turbo S myself and having owned a C2 Turbo for two years, I will give my opinion. If I had to do it again, I would skip the C2 Turbo stage.

Having said that, if you have to own the widebody, "bad-boys" car, then you should do the C2 Turbo and eventually get a 993 Turbo. When I was buying the C2 Turbo, the 993's were going for a price differential of ~CAD$60k. Now, the difference is roughly ~CAD$40k.

I still think the 964 Turbo body is the most beautiful 911 ever and my 993 Turbo does not have that same special something. However, I never could understand CIS and I really, really prefer electronic fuel injection and check engine lights.

If the 964 Turbo was EFI, I'd still have it right now. If you get one, be sure to change the suspension to something aftermarket (RUF is excellent) as the stock suspension is not worthy of that car.

964 Turbo:
+ Looks
+ Steering feel
+ Rawness
+ Still has that awesome kick
- Heavy clutch
- CIS injection clumsy
- Fuel economy is terrible

993 Turbo:
+ Fuel injection is solid
+ Great fuel economy
+ Considered the epitome of air-cooled 911's
+ Clutch and gearbox super light
- Grabby clutch
- Shape is too common (every 993 looks almost the same)
- Twin turbos make the kick not so kicking

One thing to note, neither 911 Turbo will give you the same kick that your Turbo S gives at 4000rpm in 3rd gear on the highway with a set of 1.0bar chips. Neither car gives that same rush

Take care and let us know how you decide.

 

I had a 944 Turbo for a few years and now have a 3.6 Turbo. Although I know you are asking to compare a C2 Turbo to a 993TT, I will say that you will be happy with either as an upgrade to your 951s. The steering feel, brake feel, and general responsiveness of the 911s is superior to the 944s. They also have that "extra something" that makes them special. There is some intangible in the 911 (the air cooled cars, really) that sets them apart from just about everything.

The 993TT is generally regarded as "far superior" to the 964 Turbo because it has EFI, an updated rear suspension, and a few other things. For whatever reason I bypassed all those improvements to buy my 3.6T. I just like the look of the 964s (classic headlight humps) and the closer-to-raw driving experience. Perhaps there will be a 993TT in my future some day, but if it arrives, it will park next to the 3.6T, not replace it...

 

Guys, thanks a lot for the great responses. It will probably boil down to money and I too love the 964 look. I will be making the move towards the end of summer.

 

Did you have a 944 Turbo or a Turbo S? The Turbo S is a very special car that feels night and day to a regular turbo. The difference in feel and driving dynamics is remarkable given the small on-paper differences between the cars. Compared to a Turbo S, the 911's have insuperior steering feel and especially highway stability. The 911's do have that special something, which I think is the engine rocking on the mounts in the back giving that bizarre lateral swinging sensation as you come down a bump road hard on the brakes The 911's are also much more agile and responsive as well as better on the tires during a race session. I always overheated the rear tires on the Turbo S, whereas on the 911's, the four tires temps can be managed effectively without having to back down the pace.

 

Well I will say we have different opinions on the cars! It is surprising to hear of a 911 being gentler to its rear tires than a 944. That's not typically what you'd hear...

I owned a non-S turbo but have driven Turbo S'. I'll stand by my steering feel comment. The 964/993 911s have much better steering feel to me. The best steering feel is the Boxster, of course. (Though nothing beats the razor steering of my departed GT3 Cup on the track, my 914-6 was close).

As for stability, I never had an issue with highway or track stability in my n/a 964 or now my 3.6 Turbo. I never had any issues with highway or track stability with the 951, either. If I wanted to crown a Porsche champion here, I'd have to choose a 928.

I will give the Turbo S its rightful props. It was a dominant car in its day and is a great performance bargain now. It was, as I understand it, built to be the flag bearer for Porsche, too. Until it was decided that the 911 line would live on in the form of the 964...

 

And as for the lack of EFI and a heavy clutch or even 5 speeds, all that can be changed with a sufficient infusion of cash (about the same as the difference in price between then 2).

But you can never make a 993TT look better.

 

If you want EFI, 425 HP but the look of the classic 964 Turbo then look at the RUF RCT-Evo. You purchase a normally aspirated 964 and do the conversion.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

 

Actually, it's what you often hear. The 944 Turbo doesn't have enough weight on the rear tires and you tend to overheat the rear tires and lose traction as the race goes on. You either back down or start doing lurid slides and go slow anyways. In the 911, I find it much easier to manage the tire temps and the traction exiting corners is much better on the 911. A lot of this depends on your driving style too, I grew up in karts so I tend to throttle really early and apex earlier than someone who grew up in big cars, I also tend to use the brakes for pivoting and don't trailbrake that deep. All of this puts a tremendous load on the rear tires and gives the fronts a much easier time.

I do agree with you 100% that the Boxster has the best steering of any Porsche, although I'd say the 968 is pretty close. There is another fellow on here (I think it's John) that switched from a 951S to a 993 Turbo and he feels the same as I do about the steering feel and stability.

The nice thing about Porsches is that you really can't go wrong with any of the three cars mentioned A 964 Turbo, 993 Turbo or a 944 Turbo S all make great cars. I intend on buying my 951S back from the current owner at some point (but don't tell him that!!!).

Adrian, the RUF products are awesome, I've met Alois several times and am on my second RUF suspension now. I intend on doing the Turbo R conversion on the 993 in the near future. The only problem with the RUF path with the 964 Turbo is that you can't do the RCT EVO from the 964T, you need to start, as you said, with a 3.6 NA motor The only path for the 964T is to do an aftermarket EFI conversion or go the 993T route.

 

Dear FC,
You are correct but I have seen other RUF conversions to Turbo engines and they can be quite awesome as well. However these are custom speak to RUF and work it out type deals.
I will be up at Pfaffenhausen this week. Last time I saw Alois was in Daytona.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

 

Aggie: The 964 Turbo is the last car that has the 911 Porsche steering feel. No Porsche since has been able to recapture it, whether that's because of weight or suspension changes or whatever. The EFI thing is generally irrelevant until you start to modify the engine. If you leave it stock, and only play with the suspension, you won't have an issue with it. And, if you must play with it, you can switch out to EFI, though it -- like all engine mods on any Porsche -- will cost you money. I paid $60,000 for a low mileage 3.6 and could have bought an early 993 with medium miles for the same dollars.

The cars seem so different to me that I don't think the decision can be made on paper. Which car is "better" is so subjective and personal. The 993 is 4-wheel drive and twin turbo motor with a true IRS rear suspension. It retains some or even many Porsche 911 cues, but is really a different car in a similar body.

Like others, I prefer the early body design and love the steering feel. The only newer 011 I woulod be interested in is the new 997 when it comes out. It looks great and they have supposedly gone back to the better interior from the earlier cars, though the overlapping gauges will remain.

Finally, Porsche has cheapened the entire car since the 964. None of the materials are as good on the 993 and newer cars. from 63-94 the 911 was a hand built car meant to last for 200,000 miles or more and still be a viable car. It was priced that way. Since 1994, the cars have been priced way lower in constant dollars. Each model has been cheaper. It has helped them sell cars, but that has done nothing for the owners. A 1999 996 TT can be bought today for $70,000 and the best 964 is more than that today.

Gordon

 

gmonsen
Which bits of the 993 were "cheapened" over the 964/5 - arguably the seats seem better made in the 964/5 but mine still look new after 9 years and the leather whilst not as thick looking as the 964/5 is not wearing. They adopted a few "mass production" tricks in building the 993, like setting the cam timing with a tool rather than by hand.
I agree about the 996 onwards, no question about it, but what else do you think was "cheapened" on the 993

 

TB993TT: I think the cheapening between the 993 and 996 is far more evident that from the 964 to 993 and personally like the 993 a great deal. That said, there are far more plastic bits on the 993 than on the 964 and far less human build hours on the 993 than 964. I understand that the engines are even assembled with far less man time. You are correct on the leather, as an example. The 964 leather is thicker and a different skive than one the 993. Also, there are fewer peices covered in leather and more optional leather. I don't know if it was with the 993, but they even went to plastic headlight covers instead of glass.

Again, I like the 993 and didn't mean my comments to suggest otherwise. I like the fact that the 964 is the last of the hand built cars at something like 400 man hourse versus 100 or so on the 993 and 5 on the 996.

Gordon

 

gmonsen
Don't worry how your comments re the 993 are taken - I have owned sc, 3.2, 964 and a 460hp 3.3 965 for 3 years. I am guenuinely interested if you have specifics on what was "cheapened" on the 993 ? where were those 300 man hours saved ? I find that hard to believe unless they fully automated the body construction (but I didn't think they did?)