91 C2 Turbo Resurrection
05-20-2004, 10:56 AM
#31
Rennlist Member
Sprbxr,
I was told that the best oil cooler upgrade for these cars is to use two factory oil coolers. There is room and the housing is set to accomodate a second oil cooler on top of the original. Apparently the factory used this setup on most of their high temp location racing excursions. If you run a cooler to the otherside the temps generated by the AC condensor or the oil will not allow it to work properly. The other option would be the S oil cooler which sits just behind the front duct that they used on the S models.
I was told that the best oil cooler upgrade for these cars is to use two factory oil coolers. There is room and the housing is set to accomodate a second oil cooler on top of the original. Apparently the factory used this setup on most of their high temp location racing excursions. If you run a cooler to the otherside the temps generated by the AC condensor or the oil will not allow it to work properly. The other option would be the S oil cooler which sits just behind the front duct that they used on the S models.
05-20-2004, 11:12 AM
#32
Anthony,
You have a beautiful turbo 3.6. I noticed that your running at 1 bar with B&B headers and your compression is 7.5 correct?
With your headers, do you get more than 1 bar at full throttle and what sort of fuel enrichment you using or are you using any at all?
Sorry to hijack this thread guys.
You have a beautiful turbo 3.6. I noticed that your running at 1 bar with B&B headers and your compression is 7.5 correct?
With your headers, do you get more than 1 bar at full throttle and what sort of fuel enrichment you using or are you using any at all?
Sorry to hijack this thread guys.
05-20-2004, 12:44 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Sameer,
The PO installed the spring, the part number on the paperwork corresponds with a 1 bar spring. When my mechanic tested the system under load we only appear to be running between .95 and 1.0 bar even with the HF turbo.
I have yet to figure out why this is occurring. I would figure with the HF turbo and 1.0 bar spring I should see higher pressure but I have been informed that this is not always the case. (may have something to do with the leaking B&B headers I want to replace) My mechanic and I feel we are safe for now, so long as I do not exceed 1.0 bar I see no need to run any form of enrichment. The car performs beautifully. Transitions from full boost to none and back without any hesitation. The HF turbo blows strong right up to redline without any problems. It is a beautiful thing.
I am hoping to see about dynoing the car soon and at that time I should get a better understanding of what is actually occurring.
I have no idea how much hp I am producing, all I can say is I have had a run with a Z06 vette and with the new Dodge Viper. (both from rolling starts) In both cases we appeared to be pretty evenly matched. From the sound of the vette I would have to say it was not stock. Not bad for old technology.
In your opinion is this a point of concern? I love the power but do not wish to damage my engine. I plan on changing the exhaust and the cams eventually. I was toying wth the idea of going with a Tial WG and possibly some sort of boost management. I drive the car on the street only and find I prefer to set the car and leave it.
The PO installed the spring, the part number on the paperwork corresponds with a 1 bar spring. When my mechanic tested the system under load we only appear to be running between .95 and 1.0 bar even with the HF turbo.
I have yet to figure out why this is occurring. I would figure with the HF turbo and 1.0 bar spring I should see higher pressure but I have been informed that this is not always the case. (may have something to do with the leaking B&B headers I want to replace) My mechanic and I feel we are safe for now, so long as I do not exceed 1.0 bar I see no need to run any form of enrichment. The car performs beautifully. Transitions from full boost to none and back without any hesitation. The HF turbo blows strong right up to redline without any problems. It is a beautiful thing.
I am hoping to see about dynoing the car soon and at that time I should get a better understanding of what is actually occurring.
I have no idea how much hp I am producing, all I can say is I have had a run with a Z06 vette and with the new Dodge Viper. (both from rolling starts) In both cases we appeared to be pretty evenly matched. From the sound of the vette I would have to say it was not stock. Not bad for old technology.
In your opinion is this a point of concern? I love the power but do not wish to damage my engine. I plan on changing the exhaust and the cams eventually. I was toying wth the idea of going with a Tial WG and possibly some sort of boost management. I drive the car on the street only and find I prefer to set the car and leave it.
05-20-2004, 03:54 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Cobalt
Thanks for the info. Since I am not using the A/C and this is my racecar, there is no condensor to deal with. That leaves room on the left side for an additional oil cooler. The whole front end of this car was wiped out so I am not sure what you mean by putting an oli cooler "on top" of the existing oil cooler.
Thanks for the info. Since I am not using the A/C and this is my racecar, there is no condensor to deal with. That leaves room on the left side for an additional oil cooler. The whole front end of this car was wiped out so I am not sure what you mean by putting an oli cooler "on top" of the existing oil cooler.
05-20-2004, 05:52 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Sorry for being brain dead today, forgot what the thread was about.
The factory used an oversized shroud surrounding the oil cooler. If you look it is deep enough to place another factory oil cooler on top of the existing unit in tandem. This allows you to pipe the units so the oil is cooled by the first cooler then runs directly to the second cooler giving you two stage cooling. This is only useful if you plan on using the A/C which in your case is irrelevant.
The factory used an oversized shroud surrounding the oil cooler. If you look it is deep enough to place another factory oil cooler on top of the existing unit in tandem. This allows you to pipe the units so the oil is cooled by the first cooler then runs directly to the second cooler giving you two stage cooling. This is only useful if you plan on using the A/C which in your case is irrelevant.
05-21-2004, 11:45 AM
#37
Instructor
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Sweden
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Dan Jacobs
Justin,
I think you can get to 3k however it's pretty tough. I just took the bumper bars, mounts, and heater fans and plumbing out this weekend which all together weighed about 60lbs so we're gettin there lb by lb. I also am planning to replace the ac condenser with another oil cooler as it runs pretty high oil temp 3/4 on the gauge. You might want to consider this.
Dr J, call me at my shop
Mark D, Hey man, I'll post some pictures soon I have a great one of the car crossing start finish at Daytona
Justin,
I think you can get to 3k however it's pretty tough. I just took the bumper bars, mounts, and heater fans and plumbing out this weekend which all together weighed about 60lbs so we're gettin there lb by lb. I also am planning to replace the ac condenser with another oil cooler as it runs pretty high oil temp 3/4 on the gauge. You might want to consider this.
Dr J, call me at my shop
Mark D, Hey man, I'll post some pictures soon I have a great one of the car crossing start finish at Daytona
I have started to lighten my 91 3,3 as well
AC, airbags, radio, back seat, part of the isolation material are out. With 18 inch wheels, race seats, half roll cage, the car weights just above 3200 (half tank and 70kg driver). Even if it's not much in term of weight loss it does make a difference.
It would be great if you could list out what you have taken out and what weight you reach (if you are not giving out any secrets). That may help identify new weight loss opportunities
05-21-2004, 11:55 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
sprbxr
I used another factory cooler in place of the ac condenser I ran the lines across the front in between the "humps" on the front bulkhead. I used 20' of -12 line there was quite a bit of fabrication required on the condenser mount but got the whole thing done in about 4 hours. took the car to the glen this week for 4 days never went over 1/2 on the gauge. I was getting ready for the upcoming club race manged a bunch of 2:10s but would like to go a little faster. With new tires I should do better
I used another factory cooler in place of the ac condenser I ran the lines across the front in between the "humps" on the front bulkhead. I used 20' of -12 line there was quite a bit of fabrication required on the condenser mount but got the whole thing done in about 4 hours. took the car to the glen this week for 4 days never went over 1/2 on the gauge. I was getting ready for the upcoming club race manged a bunch of 2:10s but would like to go a little faster. With new tires I should do better
05-21-2004, 11:59 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Are you running AN lines all the wat from the thermostat on the right side?
I really would like to see a pic of the install. Since my front end was wiped out, I don't even know what it was supposed to look like in the first place.
I really would like to see a pic of the install. Since my front end was wiped out, I don't even know what it was supposed to look like in the first place.
05-22-2004, 12:07 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
manged a bunch of 2:10s but would like to go a little faster.
You were very helpful to my friends at Tracquest earlier this week (GTC buddies, in particular you helped Rob Fusi with the shifter in his orange 911). I look forward to your advice on suspension for my 3.6T. In the meantime I was interested to hear about your oil cooler choice. I'm still wondering what, if anything, you do for brake cooling.
That said, and to keep the thread on topic, I plan to run the double stacked cooler set up as Cobalt has referred to it. I hope to keep the AC in the car until I can put a 2nd Pcar in the garage again.
05-23-2004, 10:57 AM
#41
Rennlist Member
Justin,
I'm using the factory lines to the original cooler then -12 to the additional cooler. I put a 150 deg elbow on the exit of the first cooler then 2 90 deg fitting on the second cooler then a coupler on the line back to the therm I'd take a picture but the bumper is in place so you cant see much. I may change the front bumper to glass if I do I'll take pictures.
Dr J
I think the best thing you can do for your cooling is make sure the seal (block of foam) between the cooler and the front bumper is in really good shape so all the air goes through the cooler. This is an often overlooked area that makes a big difference. also if you have the foglight cooler duct make sure it's sealed up where it exits the air box. As far as brake cooling I don't have any. I remove the brake backing plates, the rear proportioning valve, use PFC 97 pads and frozen front rotors and so far so good
I'm using the factory lines to the original cooler then -12 to the additional cooler. I put a 150 deg elbow on the exit of the first cooler then 2 90 deg fitting on the second cooler then a coupler on the line back to the therm I'd take a picture but the bumper is in place so you cant see much. I may change the front bumper to glass if I do I'll take pictures.
Dr J
I think the best thing you can do for your cooling is make sure the seal (block of foam) between the cooler and the front bumper is in really good shape so all the air goes through the cooler. This is an often overlooked area that makes a big difference. also if you have the foglight cooler duct make sure it's sealed up where it exits the air box. As far as brake cooling I don't have any. I remove the brake backing plates, the rear proportioning valve, use PFC 97 pads and frozen front rotors and so far so good
05-25-2004, 07:53 PM
#42
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Apex, NC
Posts: 2,426
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Justin and All -
The oil cooler you are talking about is a P, motorsport part
Gert carries it (this is the same as the 964 unit except a body to oil cooler flange (it is a minor part just a baffle really)
http://www.carnewal-europe.com/cpx_p93055.htm
or what the 993 and 964 race teams were doing was replacing both units with 1 very large one in the middle - easier to replace durring a race - less parts - not as pricy as the porsche part (@ 1500.00 Euros it's pretty expensive for an oil cooler)
Right now i can't find my pictures of ifactory part installed in a 92' Cup USA
-
if you don't mind me asking how much was the body work (est is fine) to bring the chassis back to spec - how much was a front clip. I am asking b/c I am going through the same deal right now to repaire my 92' cup.
My 2 cents on brake cooling -
routing the ducts through the inside of the trunck and the fender wells is well a waste of time as well.
I ended up routing them through the fog light intakes straight back to the the inner plastic liner - from here i used a smaller hose 2" (fabbing a funnel) and then ran them to the hub area.
it seemed to work pretty well - and it was easily replacable inside the fender with the wheel off -
The oil cooler you are talking about is a P, motorsport part
Gert carries it (this is the same as the 964 unit except a body to oil cooler flange (it is a minor part just a baffle really)
http://www.carnewal-europe.com/cpx_p93055.htm
or what the 993 and 964 race teams were doing was replacing both units with 1 very large one in the middle - easier to replace durring a race - less parts - not as pricy as the porsche part (@ 1500.00 Euros it's pretty expensive for an oil cooler)
Right now i can't find my pictures of ifactory part installed in a 92' Cup USA
-
if you don't mind me asking how much was the body work (est is fine) to bring the chassis back to spec - how much was a front clip. I am asking b/c I am going through the same deal right now to repaire my 92' cup.
My 2 cents on brake cooling -
routing the ducts through the inside of the trunck and the fender wells is well a waste of time as well.
I ended up routing them through the fog light intakes straight back to the the inner plastic liner - from here i used a smaller hose 2" (fabbing a funnel) and then ran them to the hub area.
it seemed to work pretty well - and it was easily replacable inside the fender with the wheel off -
05-25-2004, 11:46 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Rob
It is hard to give you an estimate b/c I had some labor involved in it. The only clip I could find at the time was $1k. Not cheap, but the only one I could find. I would estimate the frame machine time would cost anywhere from $2k to $2.5k.
I think I talked to you a while back about your car. Didn't you have a mechanical failure that sent you into the wall? How is the car progressing?
It is hard to give you an estimate b/c I had some labor involved in it. The only clip I could find at the time was $1k. Not cheap, but the only one I could find. I would estimate the frame machine time would cost anywhere from $2k to $2.5k.
I think I talked to you a while back about your car. Didn't you have a mechanical failure that sent you into the wall? How is the car progressing?
05-26-2004, 12:48 PM
#44
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Apex, NC
Posts: 2,426
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yes - that was me
loose right rear wheel hub, SIR turn 7, and i did a bunch of things wrong as well - I can't let a mech failure take all the blame.
My car is now at G&W in waynesboro Va. stripped and almost ready to go under the knife.
I am hoping it will come in at 25-30K when it is all said and done.
hopefully i might see it late this year.
our plan is basically the same
pull the frame out and into specs - Front clip it - re-seam weld and add all the Cup brackets, etc.
the chassis is 1/2 - 1" out and hopefully will come back into specs without major persusasion.
Cut out the roll cage, repaint the entire car, and return to stock specs.
no more racing for this one- I am looking for a more disposable chassis to race.
A 964 turbo i would be a good choice, esp. if i could find a fixer.
I am pretty much limiting myself to the One Lap of America right now. the only problem with that is the fact that 911's run in SSGT1 Big Bore against the monster corvettes, vipers, and stage 3 996 TT's - all in the 600hp realm. so i don't think i will run at the front.
loose right rear wheel hub, SIR turn 7, and i did a bunch of things wrong as well - I can't let a mech failure take all the blame.
My car is now at G&W in waynesboro Va. stripped and almost ready to go under the knife.
I am hoping it will come in at 25-30K when it is all said and done.
hopefully i might see it late this year.
our plan is basically the same
pull the frame out and into specs - Front clip it - re-seam weld and add all the Cup brackets, etc.
the chassis is 1/2 - 1" out and hopefully will come back into specs without major persusasion.
Cut out the roll cage, repaint the entire car, and return to stock specs.
no more racing for this one- I am looking for a more disposable chassis to race.
A 964 turbo i would be a good choice, esp. if i could find a fixer.
I am pretty much limiting myself to the One Lap of America right now. the only problem with that is the fact that 911's run in SSGT1 Big Bore against the monster corvettes, vipers, and stage 3 996 TT's - all in the 600hp realm. so i don't think i will run at the front.
