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From a value/investment standpoint (if that is your goal), I would be more in favor of the 3.6. The trick is finding a good one.
I don't know much about the Andial S2 cars other than they had a few engine-related mods (964 cams, bigger intercooler). It would be hard to establish a value for them as there so few.
It wouldn't be an insurmountable task to hot rod a stock 964T to this spec (I'm only an intercooler away from it but I don't track my car so I don't need it). All things being equal, the 3.6 is the one to have, IMO.
IMO the 3.6T is the way to go if you can swing it. Both great cars although the verdict is still out on the converted S2 cars. There are few of the remaining 18 out of 20 that haven't had their engines rebuilt by now which is where any additional value would be. Unlike the Cup car or ROW RS these don't seem to demand a premium the same way. Most likely because it was only an engine rebuild and no other major changes like the ROW RS's or the Turbo S lightweight. Unless there is documentation from ANDIAl it is hard to authenticate unless you have info from PCNA or ANDIAL directly. There should be stickers in some locations I no longer recall but door jams would be one and they would say ANDIAL on them. Some wear the S2 badging which takes the S from a 928GTS emblem and the 2 from Carrera 2 emblem. Others wear plain turbo badging.
A unique car no doubt and fun conversation piece but hard to justify a huge premium for unless ultra low miles and all original.
The 3.6T received the newer 3.6L engine an updated ignition, larger front brakes (red was std) 18" Speedline wheels and late MY updates all 964's had. Very few imported or made so as an investment the 3.6T is more likely a better choice but IMO these are cars you like and not investments. Either turbo is a unique driving experience.
I disagree, there's a lot of 3.6 out there for sale and little to no S2's on the market. I would go with the Turbo S2 all-day long. There are less than 20 examples out there. remember Andial is now owned by Porsche motorsports. I believe I have a list of every vin# of S2's modified by Andial From Champions Porsche.
I aree with the route to the s2 - if there is a chance to proof it is real.
why? cars drive similar (modded 3,3 and 3,6). the s2 gives you a feeling to own something unique. no mass product as the 3.6
and if the price is rght you keep enough money for all eventallitys over the next decade...
So Andial took the factory 964 turbo cars and then did engine modifications?
Once the engine modifications were completed it was now an official 1 of 20 "S2" car?
The car has higher miles (102k) and I plan on driving/enjoying the car...so that probably hurts the collectability. However, I am not interested in it sitting as a collector or investment tool. It is nice to have car that appreciates in value though....
A few questions:
1. What modifications were done? Did those affect the car in a negative way?
2. If work needed to be done is Andial still around? Are there any other special considerations that need to be made with this specialty model?
3. How do you go about actually verifying if the car is a real "S2"
This comes with the car:
Assume this is the 100k mile car that is for sale. The price seems sort of steep for a 100k mile car - just my .02. There is a price at which I would buy it, Just not the price it is listed at. I am partial to the 3.6T.
So Andial took the factory 964 turbo cars and then did engine modifications?
Once the engine modifications were completed it was now an official 1 of 20 "S2" car?
The car has higher miles (102k) and I plan on driving/enjoying the car...so that probably hurts the collectability. However, I am not interested in it sitting as a collector or investment tool. It is nice to have car that appreciates in value though....
A few questions:
1. What modifications were done? Did those affect the car in a negative way?
2. If work needed to be done is Andial still around? Are there any other special considerations that need to be made with this specialty model?
3. How do you go about actually verifying if the car is a real "S2"
Now we are butting up to the reality of documentation (or lack thereof) for these cars.
So the seller only has a COA that doesn't indicate this car is an S2? That's a big problem. You might try contacting PCNA to see if they can help. Porsche bought the Andial name in 2013 (the last owner retired and the shop closed), but they don't use it. This seems like a dead end.
What I've read about mods are the following: larger intercooler, ported heads, 964 cams and a different turbo that I'm unsure about the model of. So like I said earlier, you could do the same thing for a little less than what you'd pay for this car. It wouldn't require anything special in the way of maintenance. There's no suspension work done that I've ever read, so, mechanically, the car's not all that special as compared to a Turbo S; Porsche did more to those (suspension, brakes, lightweight carbon fiber body panels, sunroof delete, engine mods and 86 cars built) and now those car are approaching $1M.
IMO, Andial (PCNA's U.S. contract competition arm) had to push out 20 cars fast to meet homologation rules for IMSA, so they did the bare minimum to meet the timing. Then, my understanding is that the race cars never made it to the track (IMSA pulled the rug out from under the class at the last minute; a big clue here is that there's no commemorative quarter window decals in existence), so Porsche buried the project, providing no acknowledgement of the car's provenance. That makes the S2 an orphan and really dings the value and collectability.
Here's a Speedhunters article: http://www.speedhunters.com/2019/03/...s-way-to-imsa/
I'm about to start reading a book about Roland Kussmaul, the chief engineer for Porsche's competition department during this period. If I run across any more info on the IMSA/S2 project, I will update this thread.
Last edited by Metal Guru; 09-30-2020 at 10:48 AM.
I am not so sure of a lot of 3.6's for sale there are maybe 200 stock remaining in the US and most I wouldn't pay a penny for. Then there are the preserved remaining cars which command a premium. I have driven several S2's which still retained the ANDIAl built engine IMO nothing special over a 3.6T. In fact I have driven built 3.3's I would prefer in a heartbeat. Same goes for the 3.6Turbo S's I prefer the stock setup better. The issue is any high mile S2 has a worn out engine and Dieter isn't rebuilding it. It might be one of 20 but what makes it special other than the original engine build by ANDIAL?. That is on par with a car that a celeb owned. Unless it is Steve McQueen who pays a premium for them?
Nothing against the S2 IMO it isn't a super special car like the 92TSL, 3.6T S Flachbau which are uniquely different cars. Is it worth a premium over the base 3.3's? I would say a little if the engine isn't original as a conversation piece and a lot more if it is a low mile all original sealed engine never touched by another. If the car doesn't retain the original revised engine IMO it is worth a small premium over any other 3.3L but not 3.6T money by any means. The 3.6T still remains the last of the RWD single turbo cars with a unique engine very different than the 3.3L 930 engine used since the 70's. The last few S2's that sold did bring a small premium but not much so I guess only time will tell.
the coa says s2 in the description. the turbo 3,3 or 3.6 does not have this.
so this routes the car this way. and it has still matching trans and engine.
Last edited by peterpullin; 09-30-2020 at 04:32 PM.
I am not saying it is the case but CofA's have been forged. A letter from Dieter or the others on ANDIAL letterhead would be more definitive in my book. Also check for the labels I had mentioned. I have some pictures someplace in my thousands of pictures in my Icloud but don't have the time to look for them. Interesting how the S2 sold on BaT CofA reads as an option vs part of the nomenclature. AFAIK it should be listed as an option. I believe this car belonged to a rennlist memeber 1 of 20 who passed away anumber of years ago and was one of the cleanest lower mile examples remaining. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/19...-911-turbo-s2/
So the case is matching to the car but has the engine ever been rebuilt at its current mileage? if so who did the work? Were the original parts reused? Any mods made? I know of a few S2's that had the engines rebuilt not using the ANDIAl installed components. Can't recall what ones those were.
Here is a nice S2 local to me. It was one of the 10 or so that were badged S2.
10 were sold by Champion the white one is the one I posted pictures of above. I believe the zermatt silver one is one of 2 that was totalled after the owner tried converting it back after prior owners major changes. Here is one of the blk/blk ones. All of these should be marked with the S2 badging. That is helpful info thanks for posting.
IIRC they used the same K27-7006 turbos used on the other turbo S cars. Very laggy compared to the K27-7200 used on the stock turbos and designed for power up high. A nice hybrid is a better option IMO. I highly doubt these did 0-60 in 3.9 seconds.
I have pictures of several others but can't locate them without spending too much time looking through my Icloud.
Hey guys, I am in the market for a 964 Turbo and was keeping an eye out for a turbo 3.6.
A 1992 Turbo S2 homologation (1 of 20) vehicle popped up locally and it seems like an interesting car.
Which would you rather have and why????
I recently purchased Vin 136, the black/tan S2 that was listed on BAT. Obviously biased but I have to recommend the S2 route. It’s a phenomenal car with what felt like more power than the 3.6t after driving both. Also heard from friends in the industry that maintenance is much easier / less problematic on the 3.3 engine. That being said, LBI is high at $150k for 102,000 miles. I paid $145k for 79,000 miles for great condition and service records since new. If you can buy theirs for $130-135k it’s a win.
09-28-2020, 01:27 PM
1992 Turbo S2 homologation vs Turbo 3.6
