Premium for RS America?
11-22-2003, 04:03 PM
#16
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joe,
One thing to keep in mind, even the newest RSA is close to 10 years old now, so the stock M030 shocks are probably ready to be replaced........ and if you intend to use it as a track car, then you will definitely end up replacing them sooner than you expect....... and that cost would be the same as upgrading stock C2 worn out shocks.......
-Eric
One thing to keep in mind, even the newest RSA is close to 10 years old now, so the stock M030 shocks are probably ready to be replaced........ and if you intend to use it as a track car, then you will definitely end up replacing them sooner than you expect....... and that cost would be the same as upgrading stock C2 worn out shocks.......
-Eric
11-22-2003, 07:25 PM
#17
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Dana Point, CA
Posts: 2,537
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Joe,
In lieu of getting the M030 suspension on an RSA, lots of choices for upgrading the suspension on a C2. As Eric suggests, the most important component being fresh shocks on these older cars. I'm certain there are many 964 owners driving about with worn shocks, unaware of what they're missing.
Limited slip? Perhaps a used 993 6-speed with functional limited slip? Best of all would be the (early 993) Euro G50/21 gearbox, as described here:
http://p-car.com/gearfaq/
I haven't priced swapping from a power to manual rack. I have read on Rennlist in the past that it's not an easy conversion (I can't remember if it was Steve Weiner or Adrian that wrote this). But, I don't quite understand why. The power steering pump is belt driven by the camshaft, but that doesn't seem like an insurmountable obstacle. I know many 993'ers have contemplated swapping their power steering rack to the 964 RSA's manual rack, but I can't remember anyone having gone through with it. In a nutshell, I would need to do more research before attempting the conversion....
In lieu of getting the M030 suspension on an RSA, lots of choices for upgrading the suspension on a C2. As Eric suggests, the most important component being fresh shocks on these older cars. I'm certain there are many 964 owners driving about with worn shocks, unaware of what they're missing.
Limited slip? Perhaps a used 993 6-speed with functional limited slip? Best of all would be the (early 993) Euro G50/21 gearbox, as described here:
http://p-car.com/gearfaq/
I haven't priced swapping from a power to manual rack. I have read on Rennlist in the past that it's not an easy conversion (I can't remember if it was Steve Weiner or Adrian that wrote this). But, I don't quite understand why. The power steering pump is belt driven by the camshaft, but that doesn't seem like an insurmountable obstacle. I know many 993'ers have contemplated swapping their power steering rack to the 964 RSA's manual rack, but I can't remember anyone having gone through with it. In a nutshell, I would need to do more research before attempting the conversion....
11-22-2003, 09:50 PM
#18
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Central Mass.
Posts: 710
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry guys. Thanks for the replies, but I didn't give enough info ... I'm hopeful of staying in SCCA autoX BS ... this means I have to stick with factory specs for year/model.
Yeah, I want to track it, but this is the stuff I know and I don't want to class myself out of complete contention unless I"m willing to really get into serious upgrades (most of the 'prepared' cars never touch the street).
I'm thinking about the RSA because it has the LSD as an option. (But I can't go with, say, a Quaife or the 993 without moving up.) Is the Porsche LSD an option on the C2? Can't recall anyone mentioning it.
And the M030 is the factory option -- BS already allows me to use almost any shock, but the M030 also has a nice progressive spring, IIRC. So I can upgrade to that option, so long as the spring rates I use, etc., are factory spec. and I get a 92+, or the RSA.
Of course, if all of this gets too complicated, I'll just scrap all this planning, get a car I really like and just drive it. But it'd be nice to have cake and eat it too. J
Yeah, I want to track it, but this is the stuff I know and I don't want to class myself out of complete contention unless I"m willing to really get into serious upgrades (most of the 'prepared' cars never touch the street).
I'm thinking about the RSA because it has the LSD as an option. (But I can't go with, say, a Quaife or the 993 without moving up.) Is the Porsche LSD an option on the C2? Can't recall anyone mentioning it.
And the M030 is the factory option -- BS already allows me to use almost any shock, but the M030 also has a nice progressive spring, IIRC. So I can upgrade to that option, so long as the spring rates I use, etc., are factory spec. and I get a 92+, or the RSA.
Of course, if all of this gets too complicated, I'll just scrap all this planning, get a car I really like and just drive it. But it'd be nice to have cake and eat it too. J
11-23-2003, 01:20 PM
#21
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joe,
Why BS as opposed to ASP? If memory serves, there were three RSA's finishing in the top 10 of the national Solo II championships in ASP. I'm not involved with SCCA or willing to pay the $25 or so for the rule book, but it seems ASP is the class where 964's are competitive.
What are the differences between BS and ASP?
Why BS as opposed to ASP? If memory serves, there were three RSA's finishing in the top 10 of the national Solo II championships in ASP. I'm not involved with SCCA or willing to pay the $25 or so for the rule book, but it seems ASP is the class where 964's are competitive.
What are the differences between BS and ASP?
11-23-2003, 07:40 PM
#22
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Central Mass.
Posts: 710
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by joey bagadonuts
What are the differences between BS and ASP?
What are the differences between BS and ASP?
Nothing a few thousand dollars and several more years of experience won't cure!
Think of it as where BS+mods and some AS end up. Morgan V8s, Vipers and C5 Corvettes, RX-7, E46 M3, GT2s, MR2 SC, Boxsters, 911 GT2, 964, and the dreaded Honda S2k ... what a weird group! Obviously torque and hp isn't as important as balance and the driver. And you're right ... this is where I would go with some of the mods we've been talking about, I believe. And I may end up there anyway ... not a disaster but I was hoping to get some more experience before I tried it, and some knowledge of the car before I started throwing money at it.
Locally, btw, ASP is one of the more attractive classes so I'm not against it, just not eager for the deep end of the pool. And I'm not planning to be so bullheaded in this search for a car that I overlook something special just so I can remain in stock. I wanted to find out what it would cost for an RSA vs. C2, and if it would be possible to similarly equip a C2 and still remain in stock. I guess it is! Take care, J
11-23-2003, 11:09 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Joe:
A stock RSA may or may not be competitive in SCCA BS in regional (local) competition. The same goes for tweeked RSAs in ASP. It would depend on which cars and drivers one is up against locally. At the national Solo II level, the RSA has not been very competitive in either it's stock class (AS until recently) or ASP. A RSA has never won a SCCA Solo II class championship according to my SCCA book.
My RSA with minor upgrades happens to be competitive in ASP in my region, however. The PO ran the car to straight championships in both PCA and SCCA autoxs in another region for the years he owned it, and also won his class at Parade. The car has also won my region's ASP all six years I've run it. Second place the last 2 years has been a Z06 Vette. But that's just my local region. I might have been finishing 3rd or 4th in some other region with strong ASP cars and drivers. You can try to scoop out the BS and ASP competition in your own region, but it may be hard to predict how well you'd do until you actually compete.
As for the "premium" for a RSA over a regular C2 in very similar condition, that is also difficult to estimate because, compared to C2s, so many RSAs are either significantly "enhanced" (some with $15k or more in upgrages), or are low mileage garage queens. That will jump out at you if you read about the RSAs for sale at the rsamerica website. Also, we can see what people are asking for their RSAs, but we don't know what they actually sell for. I don't think we can get a good idea of the premium for RSAs using any of the used car price guides I've looked at either. There so few sold each year that the average prices may not be a very reliable guide for a current purchase, especially if it's very enhanced or a garage queen.
A stock RSA may or may not be competitive in SCCA BS in regional (local) competition. The same goes for tweeked RSAs in ASP. It would depend on which cars and drivers one is up against locally. At the national Solo II level, the RSA has not been very competitive in either it's stock class (AS until recently) or ASP. A RSA has never won a SCCA Solo II class championship according to my SCCA book.
My RSA with minor upgrades happens to be competitive in ASP in my region, however. The PO ran the car to straight championships in both PCA and SCCA autoxs in another region for the years he owned it, and also won his class at Parade. The car has also won my region's ASP all six years I've run it. Second place the last 2 years has been a Z06 Vette. But that's just my local region. I might have been finishing 3rd or 4th in some other region with strong ASP cars and drivers. You can try to scoop out the BS and ASP competition in your own region, but it may be hard to predict how well you'd do until you actually compete.
As for the "premium" for a RSA over a regular C2 in very similar condition, that is also difficult to estimate because, compared to C2s, so many RSAs are either significantly "enhanced" (some with $15k or more in upgrages), or are low mileage garage queens. That will jump out at you if you read about the RSAs for sale at the rsamerica website. Also, we can see what people are asking for their RSAs, but we don't know what they actually sell for. I don't think we can get a good idea of the premium for RSAs using any of the used car price guides I've looked at either. There so few sold each year that the average prices may not be a very reliable guide for a current purchase, especially if it's very enhanced or a garage queen.
11-24-2003, 02:35 PM
#24
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Central Mass.
Posts: 710
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the reply, Jim. You are confirming what I was saying badly in the post before yours. In my region, the ASP drivers all have quite a bit more experience than I do, and are quite fast -- I otoh am more in the "Hey, Wait for me ...." camp. The AS class and BS class are more "accessible."
But as I also said, I'm not against moving up. I'd prefer doing it at my own pace.
Curiious: what mods/upgrades do you run with success in ASP?
Also, like you've said, I've noticed that most of the RSAs are either garage queens or heavy with modifications and that selling prices are hard to come by. I'm not sure someone who is selling a garage queen would be excited about giving their carefully-preserved 964 to someone like me, but if I find something interesting I'll make an offer and see what happens! J
But as I also said, I'm not against moving up. I'd prefer doing it at my own pace.
Curiious: what mods/upgrades do you run with success in ASP?
Also, like you've said, I've noticed that most of the RSAs are either garage queens or heavy with modifications and that selling prices are hard to come by. I'm not sure someone who is selling a garage queen would be excited about giving their carefully-preserved 964 to someone like me, but if I find something interesting I'll make an offer and see what happens! J
11-26-2003, 02:07 AM
#25
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Apex, NC
Posts: 2,426
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i'd go for an RSA for ASP -
Sub in the Euro RS steering (should be able to find a used one for a few K) and then switch to double adjsutable shocks (Moton or similiar) for 1K a corner and a few other tidbits (adjsutable spring plates, roll bars,etcs - use the RS peices) and your in business - later get lighter wheels and a lot of track time and you are TOTD
Sounds simple huh? but the car has it in it - we have a local here with that set up (sans manual steering right now) and he's a terror.
or just get a normal C2 and start moding (using the extra 10K for the mod's) and your at the same price.
again my 2 cents - mix and enjoy either way
Sub in the Euro RS steering (should be able to find a used one for a few K) and then switch to double adjsutable shocks (Moton or similiar) for 1K a corner and a few other tidbits (adjsutable spring plates, roll bars,etcs - use the RS peices) and your in business - later get lighter wheels and a lot of track time and you are TOTD
Sounds simple huh? but the car has it in it - we have a local here with that set up (sans manual steering right now) and he's a terror.
or just get a normal C2 and start moding (using the extra 10K for the mod's) and your at the same price.
again my 2 cents - mix and enjoy either way
??? 
11-26-2003, 12:41 PM
#28
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Does a modified C2 put you in BSP? Let's see what you're up against.
2003 SCCA National Solo II Results
More vette's and E36 M3's--yikes! Of couse, going up against Boxsters and S2000s in BS won't be a walk in the park, either.
2003 SCCA National Solo II Results
More vette's and E36 M3's--yikes! Of couse, going up against Boxsters and S2000s in BS won't be a walk in the park, either.
11-26-2003, 05:53 PM
#29
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Central Mass.
Posts: 710
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I'll probably come home licking my wounds anyway, given the debatable competence of the driver (blush). But for that ride, and for the rest of the week, I'd rather be in a 964 -- whatever its state of tune -- than in the other cars we've talked about. And you're right, Joey, if I was just looking for a Solo car I'd get a Boxster or S2K -- and if I enjoy DE as much as I think I will, I'll be modding the car in a different direction anyway ... and with a whole other set of questions to plague you folks with! 
J
J
11-26-2003, 10:41 PM
#30
Instructor
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm a little late to this thread but I have an RSA that's neither a garage queen nor a track car. I use it as a part-time daily driver. At times the rough ride is a bit much but when I take it on those Sunday morning BAR drives through the Santa Cruz mountains I'm very glad I've got an RSA...