traveller09

Hello All,

I just logged on to pester everyone again! Ha..ha.. It is the price you pay for giving such great advice.

Ok, what would you pay for a very clean, one owner, dealer maintained, 34k mile 1991 C2 coupe? Color is polar silver, with black leather, sun roof, A/C, heated seats, on board computer. Nothing fancy, no LSD or sport package. Haven’t had a PPI yet (but will), owner claims the car needs nothing and there are “Zero” oil leaks, never had a drop. The car is 100% stock. Pictures look show room quality.

Kelly Blue book for his area is $21k; Edmunds goes as high as $25K for dealer retail (private party up to $20.5.K). He is asking $26.5K

From what I have seen out there $26K doesn’t sound that bad for a nice 1991. I thought about offering him $22K (contingent on clean PPI and Carfax). I have been researching 911’s for over a year now and I find it very difficult to put a price on some of these cars.


Oh and tomorrow I look at a 2 owner, very nice 1986 89k mile coupe. No rebuild, but car seems to be great (Pre PPI of course). He is asking $16K. I think this one might be under priced, I think he set a price before really checking it out.

Thanks,

David

Ruairidh

Well, Polar Silver is my favorite color and, while this doesn't help you one jot with market prices, if that car checks out that is a heck of a car for that money. Upto you about the '86 - personally I would go for the 964 (but then again I'm kinda biased). Let us know how this goes for you.

Bill Wagner

David:

1991 is the big "transition" year when Porsche went from the engines without cylinder head gaskets (the so called "leakers" that have given the 964 such a bad rap) to those with the cylinder head gaskets installed. Time and time again it's been shown the "leakers" weren't that common, but tell that to someone who got stuck with one.

You can check the serial number of the engine and if it's beyond 62 M 06836, M64.01 for a manual transmission and 62 M 52757, M64.02 for a tiptronic, then it's got the engine with the gaskets installed. MOST '91 964s will have this, but the early '91 models didn't. My C4 was manufactured in Feb. of 1991 and it's got the newer engine.

[The following was edited on Nov. 6, 2003 to correct my accidentally mixing Freudenberg and LUK flywheels up...that'll teach me to get more sleep!!! Thanks Christian]
Another thing to check is whether or not the Freudenberg dual mass flywheel has been replaced by a LUK. My original Freudenberg went earlier this year at about 30K miles. The repair is basically a clutch job with a flywheel replacement as well, and it will run about $3000. Although some Freudenberg owners have had them last a long time, it's a roll of the dice. I've known of some of them lasting well beyond 100K miles, and others that fail as early as 5K miles. Sounds like Freudenberg had some type of quality control problem to me!!

There are a bunch of other less critical maintenance items and updates that need to be checked that can be found by searching this site for information. One of them is to make sure the distributor has been vented (this is an update that costs about $5-$10 and takes about 30 minutes to do, but if not done, can potentially lead to disaster.

Now that I've gotten off my soap box, if the car has the newer engine AND an updated flywheel, I might go as far as to consider the car a steal. If not, it may still be a reasonable deal. Right now it's a buyers market so prices are low and this still is a good time to be buying one at great savings, whichever car you decide to get.

Get a PPI done and CHECK TO MAKE SURE ALL THE WARNING LIGHTS ARE WORKING PROPERLY!! A description of the warning lights is in the manual. Some mechanics "fix" certain problems by disconnecting warning lights.

Hope this helps,

Christian K

I guess you made a type-o there Bill, it is the Freudenberg flywheel who is the unreliable one. LUK is the replacement.

Also, does anyone know if there is a typical milage when the pre-gasket engines develop leakage (if they do?), or do I just have to worry about is for as long as I have the car?



Christian

1990 C2
ex. 1984 Carrera

carrageous

As for price, I sold my very similar 1990 C2 in the summer of 2000 for $23,500. Difference? 90K and the earlier year. So, to me, the $26,500 sounds a little high. On the other hand, a most desirable color combo, a year with problems solved and a low mileage example (too low? has it been driven?) make the price premium seem reasonable. You might find something similar for two or three grand less, but what's your time worth? And you might spend that much on another getting it into the condition this one is in.

Christian: mine started somewhere around 60K, but it wasn't leak so much as 'seep.' There was always a drop to be found on the gasket, but never enough to lower oil level or mess up the garage floor. I just lived with it.

On the dual mass flywheel, they told me I had to replace it at about 45K. I asked what would be the damage if I didn't and they said nothing. So I waited until I needed a new clutch at around 85K and did it then. Cost about $3500 at the dealer.

Hope this helps.

Christian K

Ok, thank's. Is that just your experience, or do you have any information suggesting that the leak, if it develops, usually starts at around the 60K miles interval?

cheers

Christian

1990 C2
ex. 1984 Carrera

delhi

gaskets wear especially after so many years. so i doubt being a 91 that has cyliner head gaskets installed is anything to cheer about cus you may well need to replace it anyways. same can be tru for 90 or 89 964s. I know of some owners putting in the gasket themselves and those cars ran without any oil drips. 26k is a tad high even for a '91. YMMV. winter is around the corner so you have the bargaining power on your side!

Christian K

But I guess it must be much cheaper to renew the gasket than to retrofit the gasket-solution with the grove that I guess isn't there on the older cars?

Anyway, about the price on the car. Since I'm not aware of the prices at your market I can only give you a general point of view. I guess the show room condition makes it a rare car and such a car is very hard to put a price on. I did about the same deal a few months ago, buying a very low milage garage queen-conceurs sort of car. I did pay a premium for this, but I reasoned that I will keep the car in good shape and not put too many miles on it each year and hopefully it will keep its value pretty good, since there are fewer and fewer cars available with decent milage and good condition. The premium was maybe US$3000-4000, but I think in a few years, my cars slower depreciation will have made up for it. And I've had the pleasure of driving an almost 'new' 911 which costed the triple amount, in my case, 27.000 miles ago.

good luck

Christian

1990 C2
ex. 1984 Carrera

Rory H.

Question how do you know if the distributor has been vented? Can I see it by just looking at the engine? IF so anyone have a picture of a vented distributor?

Thanks as always,

Rory

joey bagadonuts

Here's a link to a recent thread I found by using the "Search" feature (hint, hint).

A $26.5 asking price is very reasonable. Jump on it! If someone else buys this car for $25K you will regret it for the rest of your life. Like Bill W. said, this is a steal ... especially with those miles.

traveller09

Thanks everyone.

The car has an earlier VIN, it is in the low 300's. The current owner loves the car takes great care of it and has it maintained at the dealer, careful where he parks it and such. All of this is great, but he is not a die hard enthusiast. He doesn't use web groups an such. Much of what I told him about the engine and fly wheel problems associated with the 90-91 was news to him (I believe him, he is a successful guy who just uses it as his 2nd or 3rd car). So, as near as I can determine nothing has been done to the engine to address future leaks, I seriously doubt if the fly wheel has been change or the distributed has been vented, unless the dealer would of just performed those items as part of warranty work during normal service.

Believe me this has been on my mind. I am not too worried about the engine, if it passes a PPI, I figure (maybe incorrectly) that at 34k, if it hasn't leaked a drop by now then I have plenty of time before it starts. The distributor I could take care easy enough, it is the fly wheel that I have been most concerned with. Especially since I am thinking of driving it across country. I don't want to over pay for the car if I am going to have to sink 3K into shortly after I get it.

I also just had him send me some close up pics of the hood, it looks good but there is a little road rash up there, mainly just a few small rock chips. I am not sure how much of that I should expect on a 12 year old P-car, with the slope of the hood and all. Am I being too picky? I am not looking for a museum piece, just a nice clean well maintained car.

This post may sound a little pessimistic, but I am leaning heavily towards this car over the 1986. I guess I am just looking for a little reassurance.

Thanks again.

joey bagadonuts

See if you can get a hold of service records. I bought my car from a similar person. When the battery died, he actually had it towed to the mechanic's shop so that a replacement could be installed. He also indulged in annual "service" which isn't required or recommended but did it anyway just to make sure everything was in order.

He wasn't a diehard but he wasn't afraid to spend money to keep his cars running, either. That's all the assurance I needed to pull the trigger.

Jay H

Traveller:

Buy this car if you like it.

For any used car you buy, regardless of make, you are always taking a gamble. A car can have full records from day 1, pass 100 PPI's with flying colors, look like it's been stored in a bag it's whole life and you could still have something go wrong with it 5 days after you get it home. Used cars are a crap shoot to some degree. Some more than others. The only time you don't have to spend money on a car you just bought is when you buy a new one with a full factory warranty (not counting depreciation!).

If you have a maximum of $26,500 to spend on a 911, then you should find a car that is priced in the low $20k range to allow yourself some extra cash to fix the problems that will arrise. Having to spend $3000 on a clutch/DMF or $1000 on some other problem is part of running an older car, especially a performance car like a Porsche. These cars are very bulletproof and are built to very high tolerances, but they are mechanical and most things mechanical do break at some point.

You're doing the right thing by researching this car, qualifying the prior owner and asking questions in order to avoid buying a dog.

This car sounds like a nice one. Snap it up. Nice one's don't come around that often.

Good luck,

Jay
90 964

P.S. The '86 cars are an entirely different ballgame. Much less power and comfort, but they are very appealing and provide a more raw 911 experience. Worth a look if you like things a bit more basic.

delhi

beware that the 86 comes with the 915 tranny which is a bit tougher to shift compared to the g50 found on '87 and later 911s. you gotta test drive both to see whcih one suits you best.
i find the 3.2 give a raw driving experience. but i can't get over that tall stick shift (reminds me of a truck) and what seemed to be 8 track tape holders! but it is light and nimble compared to a 964. overall my wife and i prefer the 964 as it's newer (comfortable) and being in a relationship, it's best to have one's partner be involve in the decision making.

traveller09

I looked at and did a quick drive in the 86 last night. It is a Beautiful car, Body is perfect, Engine is strong, full leather interior that is in great condition. The engine purred, and the steering was nice and tight. It felt a little slow though. I wasn't able to get it on the open road due to heavy traffic, so if I decide to proceed I will have to hook up with him this weekend and take it out on the road. It has 87K miles and he is asking 16K for it.

I did love the construction, I was amazed at the quality of something as simple as the doors and door handles. I love the solid, firm click of the trigger like door handle, and the solid clean clunk of the door shutting was cool. I think I must of have opened and shut the door like 20 times. Dumb, I know, I just love quality. Does the 964 have the same feel?

I will have to go find a 964 on a lot to look at this weekend to compare. If anyone in the Seattle area want to take me for a spin drop me a line. The only Porsches I have driven are this 86, a nicely set up 1980 SC and a Boxter.

I think what it comes down to is, do I want more of a classic car feel or more zip.