Engine rebuild or.....?
11-04-2003, 01:11 PM
#17
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If you are aware of me at all, it's as a newb, and on the "buy" end of the 964 owner "experience." With that admission, I'd like to question one of the assumptions several of you have mentioned .... that a new engine (and different #s) will hinder a good sale down the road --
As a former owner of several "collectible" cars (and one I deeply hoped would become a collectible -- but wishing won't make it so), I understand how "matching #s" add real value for such a vehicle.
But in a 964 you are buying the "driving experience" and the "ownership" of the car, not its future, inflated value due to rarity or relative desirability for Hemming's or at Barrett-Jackson or in 'Classic Car' magazine.
In my own case, I've already turned three cars down (one because of oil) for issues that promised me I'd have to invest (substantially) more in the car in short order if I wanted the car to be decently sorted. But: if I found a nice, clean 964 with the mechanics all in order and the only "problem" with it was that it had the 'wrong' engine -- though the owner had complete documentation to show me what's up and I had a good PPI confirming it -- I would buy the car in a heartbeat. Oh, I might make a token effort to get some 'discount' but I would certainly want the car.
I'm tired of looking at cars, too, that have the snot whipped out of them and now the owner is wanting to sell to someone too ignorant to think about the cost of the deferred maintenance they are purchasing along with the car. In Christer's case, why shouldn't he (after he finds out if the rebuild is really necessary of course) rebuild to whatever specs he would most enjoy driving and then, in 4 or 5 years if he's ready, sell his then nearly 18-yr-old car as an up-dated, upgraded, fun-to-drive Porsche?
I don't see what's so unusual about a high performance car with an improved engine in place...unless it's a collectible. Or am I missing something?
Thanks as always for your patience. J
As a former owner of several "collectible" cars (and one I deeply hoped would become a collectible -- but wishing won't make it so), I understand how "matching #s" add real value for such a vehicle.
But in a 964 you are buying the "driving experience" and the "ownership" of the car, not its future, inflated value due to rarity or relative desirability for Hemming's or at Barrett-Jackson or in 'Classic Car' magazine.
In my own case, I've already turned three cars down (one because of oil) for issues that promised me I'd have to invest (substantially) more in the car in short order if I wanted the car to be decently sorted. But: if I found a nice, clean 964 with the mechanics all in order and the only "problem" with it was that it had the 'wrong' engine -- though the owner had complete documentation to show me what's up and I had a good PPI confirming it -- I would buy the car in a heartbeat. Oh, I might make a token effort to get some 'discount' but I would certainly want the car.
I'm tired of looking at cars, too, that have the snot whipped out of them and now the owner is wanting to sell to someone too ignorant to think about the cost of the deferred maintenance they are purchasing along with the car. In Christer's case, why shouldn't he (after he finds out if the rebuild is really necessary of course) rebuild to whatever specs he would most enjoy driving and then, in 4 or 5 years if he's ready, sell his then nearly 18-yr-old car as an up-dated, upgraded, fun-to-drive Porsche?
I don't see what's so unusual about a high performance car with an improved engine in place...unless it's a collectible. Or am I missing something?
Thanks as always for your patience. J
11-04-2003, 01:44 PM
#18
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Originally posted by Christer
That is after all why I purchased a RHD car.
That is after all why I purchased a RHD car.
Personally I'd choose rebuilding it with new pistons and barrels etc. As a prospective buyer I'd walk away from non original engines or even 993 engines. Guess we can speak more about this on Sun...
11-04-2003, 01:47 PM
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I had my C2 engine rebuilt last year, as it was getting a bit weepy. It is now as tight as a drum with no oil leaks. Whilst re-building I had:
compression ratio raised slightly (heads machined),
titanium valve retainers,
injectors reconditioned,
different cams,
replaced inlet manifolds with later plastic type inconjunction with larger throttle body
The car already had L/W flywheel, decat plus cup pipe, cup airbox and k& N airfilter.
I thought about the 3.8 option, but felt that in the end I would get much better value out of cams etc. It would have been nice to do the 3.8 conversion aswell, but for an additional £2000+ the extra grunt was not really worth it ( I might get an additional 10bhp and a bit more torque). I have seen a dyno graph for an engine similar to mine,but with the 3.8 barrels and pistons and that was all that was really in it
I gained about an extra 30bhp after the re-build. The car now goes like a rocket with loads of torque from 4000rpm.
I hope this helps.
Gavin
compression ratio raised slightly (heads machined),
titanium valve retainers,
injectors reconditioned,
different cams,
replaced inlet manifolds with later plastic type inconjunction with larger throttle body
The car already had L/W flywheel, decat plus cup pipe, cup airbox and k& N airfilter.
I thought about the 3.8 option, but felt that in the end I would get much better value out of cams etc. It would have been nice to do the 3.8 conversion aswell, but for an additional £2000+ the extra grunt was not really worth it ( I might get an additional 10bhp and a bit more torque). I have seen a dyno graph for an engine similar to mine,but with the 3.8 barrels and pistons and that was all that was really in it
I gained about an extra 30bhp after the re-build. The car now goes like a rocket with loads of torque from 4000rpm.
I hope this helps.
Gavin
11-04-2003, 02:05 PM
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Hey Christer,
I'm pretty confident your existing exhaust can be made to fit a 993 engine. I believe you would only need to reverse the exhaust flange on the right-hand side. Actually, you would be much better off with the GHL exhaust than a 993 exhaust system, which is too wide and not set up for the 964's heating system. As you've read here before, the 993 exhaust can be made to fit a 964, but it's not easy. Were you told by someone that the GHL exhaust wouldn't fit a 993 engine?
As for the miles on a used 993 engine....in my own case, I purchased a 1997 engine in 8/99, which was a theft recovery made by the CHP in 8/98, from a car stolen in February of that year. So, even without being told by the seller that the engine had 22k miles, I was pretty confident the miles had to be low, by nature of the model year being so recent and the engine having sat around for a year after being recovered.
Four years have gone by, and the newest used 993 engine is now a '98. So, you'll of course be less certain that the miles are truly as represented.
When I went with the 993 engine, one of my main motivations was the crankshaft, considering that a rod bearing had spun on my original 964 engine. Some experts say you can recondition them, others suggest you only buy new. The cost of a new crankshaft made the 993 engine make more sense financially.
When I was calling about for rebuild prices on my old 964 engine, as well as looking for a used 993 engine, I spoke to a few people that echoed what Tony wrote earlier. Paraphrasing: "I would much rather have an engine that was assembled by Porsche than one that was assembled by by 'some mechanic'. You don't know what you're getting." (Which isn't to say that I don't think there aren't some great Porsche engine rebuilders out there. For example, one of them rebuilt my '66's engine.)
It sure is nice having all the 993 engine updates, and not having to worry about valve adjustments. When my 15k mile service came up, all I had to do was change fluids (plugs are good for 30k miles).
All that said, it's not just a matter of pulling the original 964 motor, and installing the 993 engine. It's a big deal. At least it is on an OBDII VRAM (96 or later) engine. In particular, the wiring harness conversion took my mechanic forever to complete. I like what I have now, but I wouldn't do it over again, given a second chance. I certainly wouldn't consider it if I had a rebuildable core. I would go with the Porsche factory rebuild, damn the matching numbers. If you ever go to sell, you'll at least be able to tell people the engine is a factory rebuild, even if the numbers don't match.
I'm pretty confident your existing exhaust can be made to fit a 993 engine. I believe you would only need to reverse the exhaust flange on the right-hand side. Actually, you would be much better off with the GHL exhaust than a 993 exhaust system, which is too wide and not set up for the 964's heating system. As you've read here before, the 993 exhaust can be made to fit a 964, but it's not easy. Were you told by someone that the GHL exhaust wouldn't fit a 993 engine?
As for the miles on a used 993 engine....in my own case, I purchased a 1997 engine in 8/99, which was a theft recovery made by the CHP in 8/98, from a car stolen in February of that year. So, even without being told by the seller that the engine had 22k miles, I was pretty confident the miles had to be low, by nature of the model year being so recent and the engine having sat around for a year after being recovered.
Four years have gone by, and the newest used 993 engine is now a '98. So, you'll of course be less certain that the miles are truly as represented.
When I went with the 993 engine, one of my main motivations was the crankshaft, considering that a rod bearing had spun on my original 964 engine. Some experts say you can recondition them, others suggest you only buy new. The cost of a new crankshaft made the 993 engine make more sense financially.
When I was calling about for rebuild prices on my old 964 engine, as well as looking for a used 993 engine, I spoke to a few people that echoed what Tony wrote earlier. Paraphrasing: "I would much rather have an engine that was assembled by Porsche than one that was assembled by by 'some mechanic'. You don't know what you're getting." (Which isn't to say that I don't think there aren't some great Porsche engine rebuilders out there. For example, one of them rebuilt my '66's engine.)
It sure is nice having all the 993 engine updates, and not having to worry about valve adjustments. When my 15k mile service came up, all I had to do was change fluids (plugs are good for 30k miles).
All that said, it's not just a matter of pulling the original 964 motor, and installing the 993 engine. It's a big deal. At least it is on an OBDII VRAM (96 or later) engine. In particular, the wiring harness conversion took my mechanic forever to complete. I like what I have now, but I wouldn't do it over again, given a second chance. I certainly wouldn't consider it if I had a rebuildable core. I would go with the Porsche factory rebuild, damn the matching numbers. If you ever go to sell, you'll at least be able to tell people the engine is a factory rebuild, even if the numbers don't match.
Last edited by Randall G.; 11-04-2003 at 02:27 PM.
11-04-2003, 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by JoeW
***snip***
I don't see what's so unusual about a high performance car with an improved engine in place...unless it's a collectible. Or am I missing something?
Thanks as always for your patience. J
***snip***
I don't see what's so unusual about a high performance car with an improved engine in place...unless it's a collectible. Or am I missing something?
Thanks as always for your patience. J
11-04-2003, 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by Randall G.
Joe, I would agree with you. Of course I would say that, considering what engine is in my car.
Joe, I would agree with you. Of course I would say that, considering what engine is in my car.
I would do whatver your heart desires and not worry about re-sale value (as you incicated that your keeping your baby for a long time)...
11-04-2003, 03:26 PM
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If you are worried about resale value then the optimium time to sell would be now.Trade the 964 against a newer 993 and whilst you may take a bit of a kicking on the trade in, the trade in value wouldn`t be much better with a rebuilt/recon engine and you won`t have spent a fortune on the car in the first place. What you are about to spend on the rebuild/recon engine will go along way towards the cost of a 993 - you`ll have matching engine No`s and a more reliable car.
Probably about to be banned for heresy,
Probably about to be banned for heresy,
11-04-2003, 05:12 PM
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John, the cost of the top end re-build was £2600. On top of that was £500 for new valve springs, £160 for titanium valve retainers, £90 re-conditioned injectors, £510 for Cams (pair), £300 for head work, £600 for s/hand inlet manifolds and new large throttle body....Total about £4800 plus vat....too much. But it does go well now....
11-04-2003, 06:07 PM
#29
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Thank you for your thoughts so far. I don't usually throw things open to discussion as I like to my own research and then share results but several thousand brains should be better than just (barely) one...
Some thoughts:
1. I will get some leakdown/comp tests done at the next service.
2. If a rebuild is necessary, then I will use who I trust. I have seen exchange recon engines for EUR3400 or so, but as has already been said, who knows what they did in order to 'recondition' these engines if you don't know the company.
3. I would rather have a 993 than a 996, but I personally I prefer the looks of the 964.
4. I will research the P&C issue - i.e. what is the cost of 993 parts compared to 3.8 (does anyone know what the cost is in US for 993 pistons and barrels?)
5. I am going to have to do something about those pinstripe seats!
It used to drip a coin sized drop on the floor every so often. It now does the same thing but more often. I will keep an eye on this. The mechanic it dripped on last time said he thought it was coming from the 'thru bolts'.
After the service next Jan I guess I will have some 'facts' about this. I think the thing that tookme off course was that I remember a 964 engine could be had from Porsche for 10k euros with 2 years warranty.....
Anyway, by all means give me more comments. I know Dave K and Riccardo will on Sunday!
Some thoughts:
1. I will get some leakdown/comp tests done at the next service.
2. If a rebuild is necessary, then I will use who I trust. I have seen exchange recon engines for EUR3400 or so, but as has already been said, who knows what they did in order to 'recondition' these engines if you don't know the company.
3. I would rather have a 993 than a 996, but I personally I prefer the looks of the 964.
4. I will research the P&C issue - i.e. what is the cost of 993 parts compared to 3.8 (does anyone know what the cost is in US for 993 pistons and barrels?)
5. I am going to have to do something about those pinstripe seats!
It used to drip a coin sized drop on the floor every so often. It now does the same thing but more often. I will keep an eye on this. The mechanic it dripped on last time said he thought it was coming from the 'thru bolts'.
After the service next Jan I guess I will have some 'facts' about this. I think the thing that tookme off course was that I remember a 964 engine could be had from Porsche for 10k euros with 2 years warranty.....
Anyway, by all means give me more comments. I know Dave K and Riccardo will on Sunday!
11-05-2003, 06:24 AM
#30
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They all say 'through bolts'. I can't see how they can tell without wiping the engine clean and running it for a while & visually checking??
I have had a few good looks at my engine and though its wet in places, it certainly isn't enough to warrant engine removal. I think I could reduce alot of my weepage by replacing a bunch of seals/gaskets with engine in situ - but I have'nt the time or inclination at present.
However, these things are personal - some people won't accept any weeping at all.
Judging by Gavin's experience, it is certainly possible to rebuild to get a good, dry motor for circa £5k. This is acceptqable on a keeper, but clearly not on an £18k car.
Re: pinstripe seats - speak to Robmug re Cobra seats. They are apparently very good.
I have had a few good looks at my engine and though its wet in places, it certainly isn't enough to warrant engine removal. I think I could reduce alot of my weepage by replacing a bunch of seals/gaskets with engine in situ - but I have'nt the time or inclination at present.
However, these things are personal - some people won't accept any weeping at all.
Judging by Gavin's experience, it is certainly possible to rebuild to get a good, dry motor for circa £5k. This is acceptqable on a keeper, but clearly not on an £18k car.
Re: pinstripe seats - speak to Robmug re Cobra seats. They are apparently very good.