joey bagadonuts

I'm finally dumping the 80K-mile dampers and looking for the ultimate, "compromise" setup, i.e. one that you can drive to the track but is still, plenty firm. I know a number of you have given the H&R Supercups, Factory RS and Bilsten Cups a try and was wondering if you had any suggestions or advice?

I also understand that the Bilstein PSS9 for 964's is now available through FVD. While many 993 owners rave about them, I've heard form one Club Racer that they are prone to excessive oversteer at the track. FWIW, their spring rates are: F 225-250, R 400-685. On the plus side, their adjustability seems to make them the ideal "compromise" setup and there are certainly many 993 owners who are thrilled with their performance. FVD

Opinions? Suggestions? Questions?

Jeff Curtis

Yeah Joey, IMHO, and from the research and "testing" I've done over the last few months, since going to a custom Bilstein setup...those front springrates are not enough, which would certainly cause oversteer.

I would much rather have a bit of understeer, it's easier to deal with at speed. Okay, maybe for me.

I have found that you generally take 2/3 of the rear spring rate for the front and that's a good basic starting point.

Ex: 600lb rear springs = 400 front
750lb rear springs = 500 front

My setup was sent with 750 rear, 600lbs front...I want to try 500 as I am having GROSSE UNDERSTEER issues!!

Bilstein suggested the compression be reduced in my front shocks...which is getting done right now...we'll try another weekend on the 600lb springs and go from there.

MY advice would be to build your own setup, it's not too hard, now that I've finally gone to a full race setup, it's easier to understand how things work with compression/dampening, rebound, springrates, adding "tender" or "helper" springs, etc.

...but it gets pricey when you want to fool with different setups...although it is MUCH EASIER to change out springs now, amazingly easier.

Get a set of Bilstein HD shocks, I have the part#s and have Bilstein CUSTOM VALVE them depending on what springrate you use.

If you don't want full-out "Mac-Daddy" spring rates...I understand, and advise just that, get a reasonable spring rate, like 500r/350f and a decent compression/rebound setting in your shocks, front should be something like 100newtons or higher, with factory HD settings being around 75 or something. Rebound around 180-200.

I can helpout with a suggestion for the rear, but fear that I may screw that up...these numbers are from memory, as I don't have my handy-dandy notes w/me today, got tired of carrying them around, losing them once or twice while making my arrangements.

For about $1100-$1600, you can setup your shocks/springs/perches and go from there...if you add monoball mounts in there, plan for another $800 or so. Springs are relatively cheap once you go to the standard 2.25" Eibach/Hypercoil/H&R springs, and you can build a progressive setup, etc. so driving on the street isn't so damned harsh.

My best advice at this point, from reading your posts, talking to you a time or two and just basically knowing ALL ABOUT what you're going through, and the related evolution of your 964 to the "ultimate track toy" - would be to NOT go with one of the "turnkey" setups - they will NOT be enough.

Ruairidh

I'm not sure I've seen any 964 owner with PSS9's - I'd be interested in their feedback.

It does sound like, for the deepest walleted folks, that the Moton Club Sports are the current ultimates (at least until you look at the Motor Sports). Steve Weiner indicating that "they are worth 3-5 seconds at the track when they are properly setup and adjusted and they are comfortable on the street".

I haven't yet fitted the Roock coil overs/new rear sway I bought earlier this year - so cannot yet tell you my reaction to them.

Bill Gregory

Joey,

In about two weeks, I should be able to give you some feedback on my new setup, 600/700 linear springs with custom valved Bilsteins, monoballs strut/shock tops, monoballs replacing a-arm/swing-arm bushings.

Check out the 993 board and maybe the Racing forum too. The PSS9's apparently have a failure mode that's nipped a few people.

I think most people start out with progressive springs, as a good compromise for street/track usage. However, as driving skills and speed on the track increase, many switch to linear springs.

Jeff Curtis

600f/700r??

Hmmmm, care to share your compression/rebound settings?

You can email me privately on that one Bill...that is, if you choose to divulge your secrets.

Make sure you have enough threaded stem to get the retaining nut on your front shocks once they go through the monoball...that was one of my issues.

buckdr1

Bill, are you still planning to drive to any of the DE's with your new set-up or or will this be too much for our roads?
I see your "in" for Watkins Glen early next week. Perhaps we can Chat about your new set-up( My lips will be sealed!) See you there.
Bill

joey bagadonuts

Thanks, all, for the input. Ruairidh, what are you waiting for? Let's slap those things on and install the "wotsit" while you're at it!

Bill,
You were definitely on my mind when I posted. I knew you were getting out of the RS setup after just one season and wondered what your next step would be. Looking forward to your comments.

Jeff,
Thanks for the input. I tend to agree with you that the turnkey approach may leave me disappointed but maybe someone has a success story to share. Speaking of which ...

Hey, Jim Michaels!
How'd you like the H&R Supercups? Were they streetable? What improvements did you see over your previous setup?

**FWIW: The conversion factor for N-M to Lbs-In is 8.856. So Jeff's recommended valving of 200/100 translates into 1,771 lbs rebound/886 lbs compression. Also, here's a vendor whose website lists valving specs for various Porsche setups: e-shocks.

Toddimus

Joey,

I installed the RUF setup p/n R64 300 301 01. It included shocks/struts/springs/swaybars and even rear top shock mounts. I'm quite happy with it. That's an understatement, I'm extatic! It rides definitely stiffer than the stock setup on my '90 C4, but it isn't ridiculusly jarring. I haven't been on the track with it yet, but it sure holds the road like glue on the byways of Santa Cruz county, California!! The swaybars aren't adjustable, but RUF seems to have figured out the best "compromise" setting.

It cost around $2k USD

That's just my 2 cents worth (or 2 grand worth for that matter!).
Adrian recommended it and I'm happy I listened to him!!

-Todd

By the way, thanks again to Jeff C. for all the helpful info during my install process!!!

Jim Michaels

Just so no one will think I ignoring Joey's question, I replied to Joey privately.

joey bagadonuts

Got it, Jim! I guess I was thinking of CupCar who went with the H&R Supercup setup--maybe he'll chime in. Thanks again and congrats on your successful autocross season!

Thanks to you too, Todd. I hadn't thought about the Ruf option but if you and Adrian like it, it's probably worth considering. Does it utilize linear springs? What else can you tell us about the setup?

Tom W

I can't address what the PSS-9s will do on a 964 (yet), but I've had them on my 993 for about 8 months. They do not produce any oversteer. I've had to play with the RS-swaybar settings to reduce the understear in my car.

With the PSS-9s set at full soft, it's a nice daily driver and just a bit more firm than standard US stock. At full firm, it's damn firm and works well for me on the track. My 993 was a pig with terrible understeer until I switched to the PSS-9s and RS-sways. Now I find it much nicer and more neutral (but still some understeer with the current settings).

Toddimus

Joey,

I'm currently underutilizing my investment, but I'm tremendously pleased with it!!

I can see the front springs, and they are linear, and if my memory serves me correctly, the rears are as well. I know that the kit for north america includes new "stifffer rear springs", while the kit for european cars doesn't include them because they already have stiffer springs due to their lower ride height.

The shocks/struts are RUF custom re-valved Bilsteins, and sway bars are considerably thicker both front and rear when compared to the original bars.

It also includes the upper shock mount for the rears that resembles the one used for later cars , '91-'94 (like yours?). I was concerned that it wouldn't fit because the ones that I removed looked quite different.

As far as balance, it seems to have a slight bit of understeer, but is overall very neutral. TRAIN TRACKS!!!!

I think I've got some photos of the parts and installation, if you're interested...

cheers,
Todd

Christer

I think we have to be a little careful about the advice we give here. If this is a track only car then that is completely different to a street/track car. IMHO, RUF have a very good product, but is not on the same league as the 500/750 spring rates that Jeff C and others are talking about. The RUF product is a compromise, not an all-out racing setup.

In Joey's case, I know he is a track-junkie so it really is up to him how far he wants to go as far as driveability on the street. If I were you, I would utilise Jeff's knowledge if you are going the same more extreme route in order to minimise your costs.

Jeff Curtis

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Christer.

The point I was attempting to make is that you can buy a set of custom-valved Bilsteins and whatever springrate you want...if you want to go UP, then the option is MUCH easier than dealing with the fact that you bought a PSS9 setup for a "pricey" solution and now they're not enough.

Keep in mind that Joey already is "a bit stiffer than stock" with his Eibach springs...so he's already looking for more!

Buy a setup that can be changed, and changed again - for a fraction of the cost when having to purchase the weird springrates/diameters if you wind up with one of the "turnkey" setups.

NOT that I'm ******* Roock, RUF or the Bilstein PSS9 or Supercup setups - just stay flexible, then if you "dial in" what you want, by testing different combos, you can now look at that "purpose-built" Supercup setup would work for you...and know the the 3K it's going to require to own said setup would be well spent.

MANY guys are going to the modified Bilstein setup, it should give most of us "room to grow"...and experiment. Bilstein condones what we're doing, and they're available to change the valving specs any time you're ready...and you just get different springs for ~ $100 a PAIR and try your next setup, just like dialing in a front/rear swaybar.

Christer

Hi Jeff

I am also speaking from some (limited experience). I have the H&R coilovers with RS swaybars. I am pretty resistant to stiff setups, but would say that I would not go any stiffer on the road. The RS bars made a huge difference. If it was a track only car, or leaning towards that end I would definitely go stiffer and along the lines of your setup.

It just depends on what you want. I just think that Jeff's setup is not going to be ideal if you are driving on horrible roads every so often (correct me if I am wrong Jeff).

Joey, if you were based in the UK I would be happy for you to drive my car to see how it compares to yours. After all, this is the only way you are going to find out for yourself .

Good luck andlet us know how you get on. Pictures would be nice...