Standard 993 Carrera brakes (non big reds) on 964 C4...school me
11-24-2018, 07:46 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
If the BBi's are a clone of the 993RS(I don't know this to be true but suspect it) then you use 993 rotors, No, 993tt rotors are too big w/o also using extension pads. Use the regular 993 304x32 w/ 993 regular rotors or use 993tt w/ Big reds. Don't forget that you also want to use 993 rear calipers. You can keep the std 964 rear rotors or use 951 M030 rear rotors like the 964RS did.
Note that you still want the 993 m/c too.
Note that you still want the 993 m/c too.
That's the answer I was looking for. My mechanic pulled a parts list together from his last conversion, but I'm guessing they used the large "big red" Brembos. Sticking with the regular 993 calipers makes sense. FYI 9M makes the clone of the RS wheel carriers. BBI broke the mold and went a bit further with a whole new design. And yes, swapping both front and rear and upgrading to a 993 master cylinder and booster ensemble. Thanks for all of our knowledgeable posts on this topic.
11-25-2018, 08:48 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
11-26-2018, 05:45 PM
#34
12-30-2019, 11:11 AM
#35
bumping an old thread...
To recap if using non big red 993 calipers...
Fronts
If you are keeping the 964 wheel carrier, use 928 s4 brake rotors, you will need a brake caliper adapter
brake lines can be re-used
c4 master cyl is adequate (no need to upgrade to a 993)
Use 993 brake pads in caliper
Rears
Brake caliper bolts right up
brake lines can be re-used
Use 993 brake rotors and brake pads
Please let me know if I am missing something, or have something wrong. This is my winter project.
To recap if using non big red 993 calipers...
Fronts
If you are keeping the 964 wheel carrier, use 928 s4 brake rotors, you will need a brake caliper adapter
brake lines can be re-used
c4 master cyl is adequate (no need to upgrade to a 993)
Use 993 brake pads in caliper
Rears
Brake caliper bolts right up
brake lines can be re-used
Use 993 brake rotors and brake pads
Please let me know if I am missing something, or have something wrong. This is my winter project.
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jimonycricket (12-30-2019)
12-30-2019, 01:09 PM
#38
01-16-2020, 10:40 PM
#39
There are 3 basic Brembo calipers that were used from '89 -98 on 964 & 993 some versions were also used on various 944/951/968/928 models
for want of official names, lets call then small, medium and large
small
all are axial mount, black and silver versions, black on 964 front and rear, use the same pads as the 930s ie ~98x44mm, they come in front versions of 28x298mm rotors and rear versions for 24x299mm or 28x299mm rotors. The front versions all use 36/40mm pistons, the rears 28/30mm or 30/34mm. The rears come in leading and trailing designs(each can be converted to the other by swapping bleeds and feeds)
medium
front versions are all radial mount, came in black and silver, pad size is ~132x48mm, all use 32mm thick rotors, rotor diameters were either 304mm or 322mm. pistons are 36/44mm. they came in leading and trailing design(as w/ the small calipers either can be converted to the other), There are 2 sub categories -those w/ extended mounting bases used on front 964RS and 964 3.3t, those w/o extended mounting bases used on 928/993 front. The extended base calipers were used w/ 322x32mm rotors. the flat base calipers on 928/993 w/ 304x32mm rotors.
The rear version was axial mount and only came in red. It was only used on the rear of 993tt, 993RS, 993RS/CS, 993Cup, 993RSR. The 993tt versions uses 28/28mm pistons all others use 30/36mm pistons. The rotor is 28x322mm.
large
aka 'Big Red' but they also came in black on 928GTS. all are radial mount. all use 322x32mm rotors. All use ~132x58mm pads, all have 36/44mm pistons.
So base 964 w/ 4 piston caliper f/r used, black
front small 36/40 on 28x299 rotors,
rear small 28/30 on 24x299 rotors
brake torque @70bar w/o p/v 1974nm/1139nm ratio 1.74, w/pv 1974nm/615nm ratio 3.210
base 964 w/ 2 piston rear
brake torque @70bar w/o p/v 1974nm/1309nm ratio 1.508, w/pv 1974nm/707nm ratio 2.793
964RS used, black
front medium 36/44 on 322x32 rotors
rear small 30/34 on 24x299 rotors
brake torque @70bar w/o p/v 2381nm/1390nm ratio 1.713, w/pv 2381nm/751nm ratio 2.640
964 Cup used the same brakes as 964RS but w/o p/v
964 brake upgrade paths
first decision
wheel carriers
use stock steel then you need caliper adapters for the radial mount fronts either medium or large may be used. Use either 964 or 928 or 951 or 968 rotors
use steel 964RS/964t steel, then you just bolt either medium or large to them. Use either 964 or 928 or 951 or 968 rotors.
use 993 aluminum wheel carriers, again either medium or large bolts to these but you need to use 993 rotors
use 993RS aluminum wheel carriers. as w/ the 993 carriers but you also need the 993Rs outer tie rod ends or o/s Tarret tie rod ends
next decision medium or large calipers in front
use 993 or 928S4 medium calipers, Then use 304x32 928S4 rotors. These are plain and not drilled. If you chose to go w/ either 993 wheel carriers then use 993 304x32mm rotors these are drilled.
use 964RS or 964 3.3t medium calipers and then you use 964 RS one piece 322x32mm rotors these are drilled. If using 993 carriers use 993tt 2 piece rotors these are drilled can also use Gyro disk aftermarket 993tt rotors.
use 993RS/tt big red calipers then use 964RS rotors or 928GTS rotors , there are both 32x322 but the RS are drilled and the GTS are plain. If using either 993 carrier then use 993tt 32x322 rotors, these are drilled and 2 piece hat/annulus
on a 964 any if the bigger fronts will require that the rear be changed to either 964RS 30/34 or 993 30.34 rear. These are the same caliper except for cosmetics both are black but there are some silver 993 versions used on 993C4
w/ medium fronts on 304mm rotors
brake torque @70bar w/o p/v 2230nm/1390nm ratio 1.604, w/pv 2306nm/751nm ratio 2.970
w/ medium fronts on 322 rotors brake bias as per 964RS
last option for those willing to give up parking brake
993RS front and rear 32x322 front, 28x322 rear
brake torque @70bar w/o p/v 2306nm/1618nm ratio 1.426, w/pv 1974nm/707nm ratio 2.640
for want of official names, lets call then small, medium and large
small
all are axial mount, black and silver versions, black on 964 front and rear, use the same pads as the 930s ie ~98x44mm, they come in front versions of 28x298mm rotors and rear versions for 24x299mm or 28x299mm rotors. The front versions all use 36/40mm pistons, the rears 28/30mm or 30/34mm. The rears come in leading and trailing designs(each can be converted to the other by swapping bleeds and feeds)
medium
front versions are all radial mount, came in black and silver, pad size is ~132x48mm, all use 32mm thick rotors, rotor diameters were either 304mm or 322mm. pistons are 36/44mm. they came in leading and trailing design(as w/ the small calipers either can be converted to the other), There are 2 sub categories -those w/ extended mounting bases used on front 964RS and 964 3.3t, those w/o extended mounting bases used on 928/993 front. The extended base calipers were used w/ 322x32mm rotors. the flat base calipers on 928/993 w/ 304x32mm rotors.
The rear version was axial mount and only came in red. It was only used on the rear of 993tt, 993RS, 993RS/CS, 993Cup, 993RSR. The 993tt versions uses 28/28mm pistons all others use 30/36mm pistons. The rotor is 28x322mm.
large
aka 'Big Red' but they also came in black on 928GTS. all are radial mount. all use 322x32mm rotors. All use ~132x58mm pads, all have 36/44mm pistons.
So base 964 w/ 4 piston caliper f/r used, black
front small 36/40 on 28x299 rotors,
rear small 28/30 on 24x299 rotors
brake torque @70bar w/o p/v 1974nm/1139nm ratio 1.74, w/pv 1974nm/615nm ratio 3.210
base 964 w/ 2 piston rear
brake torque @70bar w/o p/v 1974nm/1309nm ratio 1.508, w/pv 1974nm/707nm ratio 2.793
964RS used, black
front medium 36/44 on 322x32 rotors
rear small 30/34 on 24x299 rotors
brake torque @70bar w/o p/v 2381nm/1390nm ratio 1.713, w/pv 2381nm/751nm ratio 2.640
964 Cup used the same brakes as 964RS but w/o p/v
964 brake upgrade paths
first decision
wheel carriers
use stock steel then you need caliper adapters for the radial mount fronts either medium or large may be used. Use either 964 or 928 or 951 or 968 rotors
use steel 964RS/964t steel, then you just bolt either medium or large to them. Use either 964 or 928 or 951 or 968 rotors.
use 993 aluminum wheel carriers, again either medium or large bolts to these but you need to use 993 rotors
use 993RS aluminum wheel carriers. as w/ the 993 carriers but you also need the 993Rs outer tie rod ends or o/s Tarret tie rod ends
next decision medium or large calipers in front
use 993 or 928S4 medium calipers, Then use 304x32 928S4 rotors. These are plain and not drilled. If you chose to go w/ either 993 wheel carriers then use 993 304x32mm rotors these are drilled.
use 964RS or 964 3.3t medium calipers and then you use 964 RS one piece 322x32mm rotors these are drilled. If using 993 carriers use 993tt 2 piece rotors these are drilled can also use Gyro disk aftermarket 993tt rotors.
use 993RS/tt big red calipers then use 964RS rotors or 928GTS rotors , there are both 32x322 but the RS are drilled and the GTS are plain. If using either 993 carrier then use 993tt 32x322 rotors, these are drilled and 2 piece hat/annulus
on a 964 any if the bigger fronts will require that the rear be changed to either 964RS 30/34 or 993 30.34 rear. These are the same caliper except for cosmetics both are black but there are some silver 993 versions used on 993C4
w/ medium fronts on 304mm rotors
brake torque @70bar w/o p/v 2230nm/1390nm ratio 1.604, w/pv 2306nm/751nm ratio 2.970
w/ medium fronts on 322 rotors brake bias as per 964RS
last option for those willing to give up parking brake
993RS front and rear 32x322 front, 28x322 rear
brake torque @70bar w/o p/v 2306nm/1618nm ratio 1.426, w/pv 1974nm/707nm ratio 2.640
Would part numbers 993-351-421-00, 993-351-422-00 (front) and 993-352-425-10, 993-352-426-10 (rear)
be considered "small" or "medium"? They are black, if that helps.
Edit: Via PM, I have learned this is a medium setup: "W/ the correct rotors the 993 calipers are a near clone of the brakes used on 964RS/Cup"
Last edited by 2000m2; 02-06-2020 at 01:49 PM.
03-25-2020, 03:41 PM
#40
Oh unless you have a C4 all brake upgrades will want to also install a 993 power brake booster and m/c, the 964 C4 comes w/ an adequate 23.8mm m/c but may wish to go to a 25.4 from an RS for better pedal feel.
The stock 964 20.6mm m/c is border line w/ stock let alone bigger caliper sets
The stock 964 20.6mm m/c is border line w/ stock let alone bigger caliper sets
great info and I'm just about to do the upgrade on my 1990 C2. I have a set of freshly rebuilt 993 medium calipers and will be getting the following
1. Rennline caliper adapters (for front 993 mediums)
2. 928 S4 rotors for the front
3. Standard rear rotors (using 993 callipers)
4. 993 Master Cylinder 23.8mm
5. 993 Brake booster
you mention above you also need the 993 vacuum can and pedestal? do you have any part numbers?
hope you can help
Best,
Tom
03-25-2020, 03:51 PM
#41
Hi Bill,
great info and I'm just about to do the upgrade on my 1990 C2. I have a set of freshly rebuilt 993 medium calipers and will be getting the following
1. Rennline caliper adapters (for front 993 mediums)
2. 928 S4 rotors for the front
3. Standard rear rotors (using 993 callipers)
4. 993 Master Cylinder 23.8mm
5. 993 Brake booster
you mention above you also need the 993 vacuum can and pedestal? do you have any part numbers?
hope you can help
Best,
Tom
great info and I'm just about to do the upgrade on my 1990 C2. I have a set of freshly rebuilt 993 medium calipers and will be getting the following
1. Rennline caliper adapters (for front 993 mediums)
2. 928 S4 rotors for the front
3. Standard rear rotors (using 993 callipers)
4. 993 Master Cylinder 23.8mm
5. 993 Brake booster
you mention above you also need the 993 vacuum can and pedestal? do you have any part numbers?
hope you can help
Best,
Tom
993.355.023.10 Vacuum canister
993.355.301.00 gasket
993.355.163.03 MC support
+ you need some adapters to mate the 10mm 964 brake lines to the 12mm 993 m/c, BMW part 34-32-6-752-405 x2 works well here
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TomJVW (03-26-2020)
03-25-2020, 09:15 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
If your upgrading to the 993 brake booster, don’t forget the whole ensemble including the larger 993 bell housing and wider lever. Ask me how I know...
03-26-2020, 02:03 AM
#43
03-26-2020, 02:12 AM
#44
If your upgrading to the 993 brake booster, don’t forget the whole ensemble including the larger 993 bell housing and wider lever. Ask me how I know...
I am ordering a brand-new booster, what exactly do you mean by the housing and wider lever? do you have any part numbers?
Cheers,
Tom
