elbeee964

Maybe this model's been price-browbeaten for so long, that I can't help but have the smallest misgivings this latest price run-up is more akin to a market flash, ala late 80's.

Like, Born in the USA:Give it a few years.
If my car's still worth today's asking price... I'll drive it then, too!

Streetdaddy

I guess I never got excited about the 964 because the ones that I saw at the D 90 wheels on them… Little did I know they could look so much cooler with cup Ones or Fuchs.

Doms964TurboII

I think the 964 will ultimately be worth more than a 993 as they were the last hand built cars. (The whole mentality of german car manufactures changed in the early 90s.They started putting shareholders interests over customers)
I also think the 3.3 Turbo will be worth more than the 3.6 (Despite the rarity) as the 3.3 was the final evolution of the 77 engine. (The 3.6 was thrown together last min on the other hand)
993's are awesome but you only have to look at the 996 to see how mass production affected quality. Porsche still make awesome cars, but you have to be in a GT3 or the like to get the care and attention that used to be lavished on every car.

tcsracing1

The 993 was an improved 964. Engine, suspension, interior etc. They fixed everything they could that was wrong with the 964. And 964 values remained low for so long as result, until now thanks to the nostaglia of the old 911 body. but thats it. Not because 993 is lessor quality.

The 3.3 Turbo will never surpass the 3.6T. The 3.3 is the old 930 motor that although has a fan base from the old torsion bar cars, it is not as good as the 3.6T nor has the rarity. 3.6L was an improvement and not a last minute slap together. The 3.3L in the 964 was a last minute out of time move if anything.

goofballdeluxe

To the OP, the answer is no. The 964, though a fantastic car, has a few things that will keep it from being worth more than a comparable 993, in the eyes of the market place.

The biggest one is: fair or not, the 993 is the LAST air-cooled generation 911. That right there is the biggest reason. That, and the 993 has more power than the 964.

When people are comparing cars, they want the "best". And usually the "best" is the most powerful. And the fact that the 993 is Porsche's final iteration of an air-cooled platform that they had evolved over 30 years, means it also improved on some of the 964's shortcomings, like the rear suspension, lifters that need to be adjusted, etc.

Now, all that said, a fantastically maintained 964 will bring more money than a ratty 993.

But both are becoming investments, as time goes on. That's why prices have skyrocketed for all air-cooled 911s.

Personally, I'd rather have a well-kept 964 over an abused 993, and a well kept car will bring more money, regardless of 964 or 993.

But all things being equal, it's hard for the market, which set the price for cars, to deny the allure of the most powerful, and last, air-cooled 911.

That alone will keep 993 prices marginally higher than 964s.

Both are great, and we're lucky to own one or the other

pirahna

rollingjack

Yes, you discuss here, when or is this possible.

But I must say- YES it is Today!

In our small country are in sale in moment two 993-s and one 964.

964 price is 49900€ and 993C4 price is 39000€, 993C2 is 44000€

Check it:

http://eng.auto24.ee/used/1971906

http://eng.auto24.ee/used/1983968

http://eng.auto24.ee/used/1981262

cobalt

The power differences are negligible Factory and independent acceleration numbers show them to be nearly identical. It is easier and less costly to extract more HP out of a 964 to bring it to or beyond 993 Hp#'s vs attempting to extract more HP out of the 993 engine. There are definite refinements made to the 993 and that is part of the debate. Is refining the car an improvement to the initial air cooled experience? That is up to the individual buyer to decide.

Unfortunately best has little to do with what the market is showing or what is driving the market it is also subjective. If I thought the 993 was a better driving experience I would own them instead of the 964 but that is me and although the differences are obvious most would find the cars similar. This is not a discussion about best nothing wrong with a 993 or 964 best is based one what your needs are. For me the 964 is better suited to my driving and style. As much as I like the 993 I would not trade my 964's for one but that is me. If so than a 993 should by your logic be worth more than a 75-77 turbo carrera or any of the long hood 911's and they don't come close. The turbos are in the $200k's, long noses can bring close to a half mill for a perfect survivor S. Considerably more than a pristine 993TT currently.

Actually the 964's and 993's in the mid 30-60k mile range are commanding similar money already. It is not great vs ratty as you put it. The issue is there is a boat load of 993's in the 30-60k mile range in nice shape readily available and very few 964's never mind low mileage pristine ones.

Although the 993 qualifies as the last air cooled 911 it is somewhat separate because of all the changes vs the similarities the 964 has to the original 901. I think the 993 could be considered the keystone to the entire 911 line. They were the air cooled prior to it and the water cooled after with the 993 having a special place smack dab between the two. It retained the air-cooled engine but gained suspension and design changes that set the direction and have somewhat been carried through to the current cars.

Without the 993 there may be no Porsche today and that may someday make it skyrocket in value. Although some consider the 964 the last of the hand built. That is a misnomer. They may be the last of the hand assembled old school approach to building cars that Porsche needed to separate themselves from. However they were not hand built like early Ferrari's or AM's of the 60's.

So what the market is showing me is that a nice 964 might be worth more than a nice 993 and a ratty 993 is worth more than a ratty 964. But what will tomorrow bring?

goofballdeluxe

^^^^ To be frank, it doesn't matter what you think. Or I think.

What matters is what the market thinks.

It doesn't matter if the 993 is negligibly more powerful. The fact is, it's more powerful. From a "worth" or market perspective, that matters. It's also the last. The market considers this to be of merit also, when considering worth or value.

Really, your opinion is your own, but the market has already spoken on this.

The market has concluded, rightly, without any justification needed, that the 993 is the most powerful, and last, air-cooled Porsche. The market reflects this in a higher price vs. 964.

These are just the facts, not my opinion. Of course, you're entitled to your own opinion, but facts are facts.

And facts, not opinions, are what drives the market

canuck964

This may be true when comparing what I would call the typical "used car" market.

But the 993s and 964s have evolved beyond that now. They are getting into the "collectors" market.

It would seem to me that rarity would trump the "LAST of" premium in that market.

So the respective values would depend on how many surviving models exist.

I agree that if there were similar numbers between the 964 and 993 then the "last of" premium would exist.

Only time will tell.

For me I will always be looking for the "first of" model.

fenixv8

I think what canuck964 states is very important to factor in "So the respect values would depend on how many surviving models exist."

"last of the air cooled", "proper 911 look", "last hand built" etc all little factors that affect the persons choice between the two. But really its supply and demand.

There is a demand for both for separate reasons but time will tell the supply part.

964 = 13,101 original US cars?
993 = 24,103 original US cars?

PhatPhlatSix

Would you go out with a girl because of her ability to cook or the grades she got at college??? Or the way she looks and performs... ahem.

Secondhand values are about desirability, how the object makes you feel. If I wanted "better, faster", I might have bought a 996...

goofballdeluxe

There's some truth to what you say.

Rarity is important. So is "last of breed".

Some think having the air-cooled car with the most power trumps production numbers.

Some will find the 993 to be better looking. Others prefer the 964.

Yes, no one knows what the future will bring.

But as of now, and up until now, the "last of" and more powerful 993 has been "worth" more, than the lower production and more hand-built 964. At least to the market place.

I love them both

cobalt

That is where I see a flaw in your logic. The market is reflecting the 964 to be increasing in value at a much faster rate than the 993 and it has caught up in some cases has passed it. In the case of the turbo, turbo S, and RSA US models it has blown the 993 away. As far as like C2's and C4's market pricing is quite comparable.

Actually i married my wife for all of the above so what does that say about me.

Klefroid

To much plastic .... Give me a 930 all day long... :-D
Just kidding :-) I like them both and the 964 and 993 will go up in value as they are both aircooled.
Now it's the time to get hands on a nice low miles 993. The are next in line to follow the crazy market.
If I can get a 993tt for my 930 I'll swap. Anyone? :-D