Developing Carbon Brakes with Freno
03-28-2015, 06:18 AM
#1
Developing Carbon Brakes with Freno
FYI, no affiliation. Please google Freno carbon brakes for some eye candy plus take a visit to their page if you fancy it.
******------------------------------
So, my attention has turned to unsprung weight and how to get rid of it, and one of the biggest opportunity areas for me is the Brakes.
I'm currently running Big Reds and love the performance these offer, but a mate of mine who runs a SC Elise 135r told me about Freno and their carbon rotor/ ali calliper package which comes in at ~5kg per corner. Nice :-)
Cue a few email exchanges, missed meetings, and finally I managed to get to their premises for a chat through what they produce and what the potential is for developing a package for 993s and older P Cars.
Bit of background before that though is Freno used to supply the now defunct Formula 2 via Palmer Sport just down the road from me, and I'm aware of a few other race teams using their products in their own series with excellent results. So, proven pedigree check
Cup of tea in hand, I sit down with Sean and John and they run me through their product and show me examples. They talk about their ceramic infiltration system and the fact that their product responds/ bites immediately when cold/ wet whilst still offering the same fade resistance of Carbon-Carbon set ups. Exactly what I need being a fast road car rather than a track rat. So, actually manufacturing what I need check
I didn't take pics but their callipers and 2 piece-rotors look amazing. I'm not a scientific brain but I was amazed that the rotors were cold to the touch as they conducted heat away from your finger tips. lol. So, pulls at the heart strings check
Sean and John were also top blokes and we had a good friendly chat/ productive meeting which we feel we can take to the next step. So, I can work with them check
However, it's here where I need the help of you guys please with accumulating the specs of the current Big Reds calliper and Disc package so they can work out how the braking of their set up will differ - either better or worse in its current 278mm 4-pot guise...
The key bits of info they need for the BIG REDS package as I understand it are:
Weight of Front/ Rear Discs.....
Thickess of Front/ Rear Discs.....
Diameter of Front/ Rear Discs.....
Weight of Front/ Rear Caliper.....
Piston size of Front/ Rear Caliper.....
Brake pad part number and brand for Front/ Rear Caliper
And then:
Roll point/ centre of gravity for the car itself
Weight distribution of the car itself
Overall outer diameter of the wheel/ tyre combo for 17" and 18" may be useful too
It would be awesome if you could post up what you know and in return I'll keep you all dialled in on our slow progress
******------------------------------
So, my attention has turned to unsprung weight and how to get rid of it, and one of the biggest opportunity areas for me is the Brakes.
I'm currently running Big Reds and love the performance these offer, but a mate of mine who runs a SC Elise 135r told me about Freno and their carbon rotor/ ali calliper package which comes in at ~5kg per corner. Nice :-)
Cue a few email exchanges, missed meetings, and finally I managed to get to their premises for a chat through what they produce and what the potential is for developing a package for 993s and older P Cars.
Bit of background before that though is Freno used to supply the now defunct Formula 2 via Palmer Sport just down the road from me, and I'm aware of a few other race teams using their products in their own series with excellent results. So, proven pedigree check
Cup of tea in hand, I sit down with Sean and John and they run me through their product and show me examples. They talk about their ceramic infiltration system and the fact that their product responds/ bites immediately when cold/ wet whilst still offering the same fade resistance of Carbon-Carbon set ups. Exactly what I need being a fast road car rather than a track rat. So, actually manufacturing what I need check
I didn't take pics but their callipers and 2 piece-rotors look amazing. I'm not a scientific brain but I was amazed that the rotors were cold to the touch as they conducted heat away from your finger tips. lol. So, pulls at the heart strings check
Sean and John were also top blokes and we had a good friendly chat/ productive meeting which we feel we can take to the next step. So, I can work with them check
However, it's here where I need the help of you guys please with accumulating the specs of the current Big Reds calliper and Disc package so they can work out how the braking of their set up will differ - either better or worse in its current 278mm 4-pot guise...
The key bits of info they need for the BIG REDS package as I understand it are:
Weight of Front/ Rear Discs.....
Thickess of Front/ Rear Discs.....
Diameter of Front/ Rear Discs.....
Weight of Front/ Rear Caliper.....
Piston size of Front/ Rear Caliper.....
Brake pad part number and brand for Front/ Rear Caliper
And then:
Roll point/ centre of gravity for the car itself
Weight distribution of the car itself
Overall outer diameter of the wheel/ tyre combo for 17" and 18" may be useful too
It would be awesome if you could post up what you know and in return I'll keep you all dialled in on our slow progress
03-28-2015, 07:33 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
The Big Red (993 turbo) package is as follows:
Front Rotor: 322mm x 32mm
Rear Rotor: 322mm x 28mm
Front Caliper: Trail Piston 44mm, Lead Piston 36mm
Rear Caliper: Trail 28mm, Lead 28mm
I prefer the additional rear bias of the 993 RS rear caliper which uses the same size rotor, but uses a 36/30 rear caliper.
Brake pads are personal preference. Track guys are mainly using Pagid or PFC. Most recommend OEM pads for street use if you want no noise.
Outer tire diameter is tire specific. Most manufacturers give the specifications on the web.
Front Rotor: 322mm x 32mm
Rear Rotor: 322mm x 28mm
Front Caliper: Trail Piston 44mm, Lead Piston 36mm
Rear Caliper: Trail 28mm, Lead 28mm
I prefer the additional rear bias of the 993 RS rear caliper which uses the same size rotor, but uses a 36/30 rear caliper.
Brake pads are personal preference. Track guys are mainly using Pagid or PFC. Most recommend OEM pads for street use if you want no noise.
Outer tire diameter is tire specific. Most manufacturers give the specifications on the web.
03-28-2015, 07:51 AM
#3
Three Wheelin'
very interesting,
there is quite a lot of unsprung weight you can save, specially on the front,
about 4 kg per conner with light wheels , 2.5kg with RS uprights,
if you can save another 5 kg on the brake package as well that's good news,
did they give you any rough quote
there is quite a lot of unsprung weight you can save, specially on the front,
about 4 kg per conner with light wheels , 2.5kg with RS uprights,
if you can save another 5 kg on the brake package as well that's good news,
did they give you any rough quote
03-28-2015, 09:15 AM
#4
A lot of mis-inofrmation on here about heaiver is better but with unsprung weight lighter is better but only up to the point that stiffness and strength are not compromised.
I would imagine Freno are buying in proprietary stock disc material from one of the few companies that have the equipment and knowledge to manufacture what is quite a complex process. Freno then will have these blanks machined to their drawings.
Depending on disc size and cost I'm very interested to see how this develops as 5kg per corner is a big chunk of weight
I would imagine Freno are buying in proprietary stock disc material from one of the few companies that have the equipment and knowledge to manufacture what is quite a complex process. Freno then will have these blanks machined to their drawings.
Depending on disc size and cost I'm very interested to see how this develops as 5kg per corner is a big chunk of weight
03-28-2015, 12:16 PM
#6
The Big Red (993 turbo) package is as follows:
Front Rotor: 322mm x 32mm
Rear Rotor: 322mm x 28mm
Front Caliper: Trail Piston 44mm, Lead Piston 36mm
Rear Caliper: Trail 28mm, Lead 28mm
I prefer the additional rear bias of the 993 RS rear caliper which uses the same size rotor, but uses a 36/30 rear caliper.
Brake pads are personal preference. Track guys are mainly using Pagid or PFC. Most recommend OEM pads for street use if you want no noise.
Outer tire diameter is tire specific. Most manufacturers give the specifications on the web.
Front Rotor: 322mm x 32mm
Rear Rotor: 322mm x 28mm
Front Caliper: Trail Piston 44mm, Lead Piston 36mm
Rear Caliper: Trail 28mm, Lead 28mm
I prefer the additional rear bias of the 993 RS rear caliper which uses the same size rotor, but uses a 36/30 rear caliper.
Brake pads are personal preference. Track guys are mainly using Pagid or PFC. Most recommend OEM pads for street use if you want no noise.
Outer tire diameter is tire specific. Most manufacturers give the specifications on the web.
The reason for the pad question is to get the part number, so regardless of the manufacturer, they can use the code to work out sizing etc. If you know which pad product code you use for BIG REDS please enter it here...
...and as for the outer wheel question...I hope to get a broad mix from people here. Some run 17s, some 18s, some have 275x40, some 265x35. If I can get a min and max for both 17 and 18 then I'm sure that can help.
very interesting,
there is quite a lot of unsprung weight you can save, specially on the front,
about 4 kg per conner with light wheels , 2.5kg with RS uprights,
if you can save another 5 kg on the brake package as well that's good news,
did they give you any rough quote
there is quite a lot of unsprung weight you can save, specially on the front,
about 4 kg per conner with light wheels , 2.5kg with RS uprights,
if you can save another 5 kg on the brake package as well that's good news,
did they give you any rough quote
No idea of costs yet but they will be expensive as these things tend to be
Trending Topics
03-30-2015, 08:37 AM
#8
Price will still be a limiting factor, albeit I do find it very interesting.
The 278mm discs for the lotus application incl. the pads costs over 2,500$ Link to Freno kit
The larger Porsche discs should then roughly 3,000$. Although it is much cheaper than original Porsche, it still is very expensive.
In any case, would still be interesting what they would cost, but may suit them better to make carbon replacements discs for the ceramic equipped Porsche's.
The 278mm discs for the lotus application incl. the pads costs over 2,500$ Link to Freno kit
The larger Porsche discs should then roughly 3,000$. Although it is much cheaper than original Porsche, it still is very expensive.
In any case, would still be interesting what they would cost, but may suit them better to make carbon replacements discs for the ceramic equipped Porsche's.
03-30-2015, 10:03 AM
#10
Instructor
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Crawley, West Sussex, UK
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
A question I have, what is the braking power compared to the standard disc, i.e. the 2 different technologies on the same dia disc with the same calipers? Do we aplly more force, less force at the pedal and how does it vary with disc temperature?
I could be interested in a group buy.... ;-)
I could be interested in a group buy.... ;-)
03-30-2015, 01:23 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
Colin from NineMeister experimented with this a while back...
9m 964 Speedster Project - Carbon Brakes & Carbon wheels
9m 964 Speedster Project - Carbon Brakes & Carbon wheels
...This is a customer project to build his ultimate lightweight 964 Speedster. The story so far includes a full body & paint restoration & repaint including carbon bonnet & engine lid; full interior retrim in coffee leather & carpet with dark grey accent; KW suspension package, 993RS 6 speed gearbox with LSD; 964RS flywheel & clutch & a special 9m engine package including Motec engine management (as yet to be finalised).
With respect to wheels & brakes, our customer did a lot of work determining which parts would give the greatest weight saving, the result being that carbon discs, 6 pot calipers & Dymag carbon wheels ended up on the shopping list. Of course, to provide the power to make these calipers worthwhile the car has also been upgrades with a 4 channel 993RS ABS system...
With respect to wheels & brakes, our customer did a lot of work determining which parts would give the greatest weight saving, the result being that carbon discs, 6 pot calipers & Dymag carbon wheels ended up on the shopping list. Of course, to provide the power to make these calipers worthwhile the car has also been upgrades with a 4 channel 993RS ABS system...
...The rotors are carbon-carbon, 380mm on the front and 365mm rear. The wheel spacer is a red herring, we only fitted it to hold the hub in place whilst we spun up the disc to check the installed run-out. The bells are CNC machined hard-annodised "aircraft alloy".
03-30-2015, 02:31 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
^^^^^
Right.... and it still barely makes any sense if optioned on a new 991 (for $8,000+ over already FANTASTIC steel brakes). Thankfully it doesn't have to make sense, just has to be possible.
Carbon brakes should be standard on a Singer...
Right.... and it still barely makes any sense if optioned on a new 991 (for $8,000+ over already FANTASTIC steel brakes). Thankfully it doesn't have to make sense, just has to be possible.
Carbon brakes should be standard on a Singer...
03-30-2015, 08:20 PM
#14
Burning Brakes
there is no way to reduce the weight by kg per corner, the big reds with the turbo 322mm disks aren't that heavy .. and the breaking is great as long as you are not going 300km/h on the autobahn and constantly breaking down to like 100km/h ... just my two cents .. they were running the 24h with that kind of setup without issues ...
03-31-2015, 07:26 AM
#15
there is no way to reduce the weight by kg per corner, the big reds with the turbo 322mm disks aren't that heavy .. and the breaking is great as long as you are not going 300km/h on the autobahn and constantly breaking down to like 100km/h ... just my two cents .. they were running the 24h with that kind of setup without issues ...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...pension-3.html
993 Disc circa 8.3kg
993 Calliper circa 3.3kg
So say 12kg per corner on the BIG RED brake package compared to maybe 5-6kg for the Freno set...
Then as Kos mentions, in partnership with:
Light Wheels circa 4kg
RS wheel carriers etc at 2.5kg saving
You have a whopping 18kg saving per corner potentially. There's lots of unsprung mass multipliers out there, Dymag use a factor of 5, so that's the equivalent of shaving off 90kg of sprung mass maybe (not for debate, just an example, but the point is there is weight to be saved and maybe its significant).
...but agreed the braking is great...that's the benchmark
***--------------
I still need brake pad numbers for the BIG REDS package and some outer wheel measurements for those running 17s...please help
***--------------