$150K RS America!
01-17-2014, 02:54 PM
#46
Creaturecat has made the first spot-on post in either forum regarding this RS, thank you and finally.
Not only don't dealers have an obligation to us RL's to post transaction data, but they would be doing a disservice to their clients if they did so. We all live in a free-market, capitalist economy, which I daresay provides almost (all) of us the means to enjoy the Porsche world.
Cars, even our beloved Porsche's, are like any other asset, they rise and fall with demand. To denigrate a dealer or private seller for their asking price is simply wrong. The car will sell, sooner or later, for whatever the next owner is willing to pay. That is then the market for that particular car; it doesn't mean that every car identical to it is worth that - the next one may trade for more or less.
It's a forum, and by definition, a place to share your own thoughts, and mine are that after reading the comments here, in the cross-post about this car, in the RS forums about pricing trends, every RL member that is crying foul and bashing sellers left and right is doing nothing but lowering the quality of this forum.
Not only don't dealers have an obligation to us RL's to post transaction data, but they would be doing a disservice to their clients if they did so. We all live in a free-market, capitalist economy, which I daresay provides almost (all) of us the means to enjoy the Porsche world.
Cars, even our beloved Porsche's, are like any other asset, they rise and fall with demand. To denigrate a dealer or private seller for their asking price is simply wrong. The car will sell, sooner or later, for whatever the next owner is willing to pay. That is then the market for that particular car; it doesn't mean that every car identical to it is worth that - the next one may trade for more or less.
It's a forum, and by definition, a place to share your own thoughts, and mine are that after reading the comments here, in the cross-post about this car, in the RS forums about pricing trends, every RL member that is crying foul and bashing sellers left and right is doing nothing but lowering the quality of this forum.
01-17-2014, 04:02 PM
#48
Just beacause some of you disagree that the RSA may not be collectible does not make it so. The facts are these:
-Limited run factory car with RS badge (marketing or not, it's factory)
-Limited options (Sunroof delete cars will command higher $'s)
-There are likely less than 400-450 left on the planet, maybe 20% of these are low milers and in good enough condition to be considered collectible. BTW, Euro RS's were made in larger numbers
-There are likely at least 400 buyers/collectors on the planet willing to pay for the right car
-They aren't making any more of these, ever!
-RSA is different enough from standard C2's to make it special
-The market speaks, and because no one is proving to any of you they sold for higher numbers, does not make it BS
-This forum likely speaks for a very small % of the market in collectibles
-The European market is clamorring for solid air cooled cars, especially West coast cars, so the buying market is quite large worldwide
-As cars such as US Cups, Euro RS's, Turbo S's, Speedsters, move up in value, the RSA's will climb in value too.
I know the RSA's have been hammered in the past for being nothing more than a C2 with a tail, but if you speak to RSA owners today, they will all tell you there is something special about these cars. and like the C2's if you attend to lowering the car and installing proper suspension these cars come to life like few others, and this change will have little affect to the collectibility of the car.
It would have been hard for me to believe that a 73 T in excellent condition would ever fetch more than $25K, but they now routinely fetch in the 6 figures, and they made crap loads of those.
At the end of the day, Vin is Vin. The factory air cooled cars in limited runs, will command respect in the market. The RSA is a special story and should be appreciated for what it is. The fact that it's becoming a possible collector car shouldn't raise your blood pressure too much. The market will always speak louder than words. At this point the market is testing the very good cars. Collectors are smarter than you think
-Limited run factory car with RS badge (marketing or not, it's factory)
-Limited options (Sunroof delete cars will command higher $'s)
-There are likely less than 400-450 left on the planet, maybe 20% of these are low milers and in good enough condition to be considered collectible. BTW, Euro RS's were made in larger numbers
-There are likely at least 400 buyers/collectors on the planet willing to pay for the right car
-They aren't making any more of these, ever!
-RSA is different enough from standard C2's to make it special
-The market speaks, and because no one is proving to any of you they sold for higher numbers, does not make it BS
-This forum likely speaks for a very small % of the market in collectibles
-The European market is clamorring for solid air cooled cars, especially West coast cars, so the buying market is quite large worldwide
-As cars such as US Cups, Euro RS's, Turbo S's, Speedsters, move up in value, the RSA's will climb in value too.
I know the RSA's have been hammered in the past for being nothing more than a C2 with a tail, but if you speak to RSA owners today, they will all tell you there is something special about these cars. and like the C2's if you attend to lowering the car and installing proper suspension these cars come to life like few others, and this change will have little affect to the collectibility of the car.
It would have been hard for me to believe that a 73 T in excellent condition would ever fetch more than $25K, but they now routinely fetch in the 6 figures, and they made crap loads of those.
At the end of the day, Vin is Vin. The factory air cooled cars in limited runs, will command respect in the market. The RSA is a special story and should be appreciated for what it is. The fact that it's becoming a possible collector car shouldn't raise your blood pressure too much. The market will always speak louder than words. At this point the market is testing the very good cars. Collectors are smarter than you think
01-17-2014, 09:47 PM
#49
I think you missed the gist of this thread. The issue isn't about "collectibility" but rather how this car appears to be priced ahead of the current market. That being said, if one person is willing to pay (or close to) asking price, then that becomes the defacto market.
01-18-2014, 01:52 AM
#50
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Are there any cars that sent up in value, then back down?
I can't think of cars that values went down after going high... Bit maybe its because we don't hear about them as much
I can't think of cars that values went down after going high... Bit maybe its because we don't hear about them as much
01-18-2014, 11:51 AM
#54
There's a vacuum created when higher spec models go up in price. That means the lower spec models come up in value as well. The perfect example would be the 190SL market now that the 300SL market is starting to dry up and the cars are a million dollars plus.
The pristine 300SL examples are all bought up, so where does that market go? The pristine 190SL examples are going to start coming up in price because the guys who want 300SLes can't get them, so they'll settle for the 190SL.
This is only inevitable for the 964 generation.
01-18-2014, 12:07 PM
#55
You can see it on http://rsamerica.net/market/vehicles/index.htm
ctrl+f "Trappe"
01-18-2014, 02:33 PM
#56
Burning Brakes
I know the RSA's have been hammered in the past for being nothing more than a C2 with a tail, but if you speak to RSA owners today, they will all tell you there is something special about these cars. and like the C2's if you attend to lowering the car and installing proper suspension these cars come to life like few others, and this change will have little affect to the collectibility of the car.
Now in the market VIN is king, which means RSA's are going to be much more collectible than a C2. Frankly, I hope the seller gets his price. A rising tide lifts all boats even my porky (an extra 100lbs or so) C2.
01-18-2014, 04:01 PM
#57
Jaye, I see your point to a certain degree. To make the C2 an RSA (less Vin of course would likely take $20-$25K in parts and labor, maybe more.
The items that make the RSA special are no sunroof, very expensive to have done properly on a C2, manual rack, yes this can be changed, but at what cost and effort? The RSA specific tail (Yes you can buy one and slap it on to a C2, but not cheap), Lt Wt interior, (yes, you can do that to a C2 as well except it's a big job), and maybe the factory rolled fenders on some of the cars (although not proved out yet.) To that point I have see early cars with this done and later cars without, again not sure if it was a factory thing, or done after the fact, also not sure about the seam welding of the non sunroof early cars, this point may be an urban myth, and 7 & 8's which are fairly easy to source, and of course the lack of any other options that were available for the C2 (other than LSD, CR-1, and AC) The factory M030 suspension was cool at the time, but really didn't take it anywhere close to where it needed to be, so both cars need that.
Anyway, Do I wish there was some secret factory sauce in the motor? Sure, that would have made it more interesting, but at the end of the day, this is a limited production car, lighter in weight, that the factory saw fit to badge with an RS.
VIN is King
The items that make the RSA special are no sunroof, very expensive to have done properly on a C2, manual rack, yes this can be changed, but at what cost and effort? The RSA specific tail (Yes you can buy one and slap it on to a C2, but not cheap), Lt Wt interior, (yes, you can do that to a C2 as well except it's a big job), and maybe the factory rolled fenders on some of the cars (although not proved out yet.) To that point I have see early cars with this done and later cars without, again not sure if it was a factory thing, or done after the fact, also not sure about the seam welding of the non sunroof early cars, this point may be an urban myth, and 7 & 8's which are fairly easy to source, and of course the lack of any other options that were available for the C2 (other than LSD, CR-1, and AC) The factory M030 suspension was cool at the time, but really didn't take it anywhere close to where it needed to be, so both cars need that.
Anyway, Do I wish there was some secret factory sauce in the motor? Sure, that would have made it more interesting, but at the end of the day, this is a limited production car, lighter in weight, that the factory saw fit to badge with an RS.
VIN is King
01-18-2014, 04:54 PM
#58
Three Wheelin'
Jaye, I see your point to a certain degree. To make the C2 an RSA (less Vin of course would likely take $20-$25K in parts and labor, maybe more.
The items that make the RSA special are no sunroof, very expensive to have done properly on a C2, manual rack, yes this can be changed, but at what cost and effort? The RSA specific tail (Yes you can buy one and slap it on to a C2, but not cheap), Lt Wt interior, (yes, you can do that to a C2 as well except it's a big job), and maybe the factory rolled fenders on some of the cars (although not proved out yet.) To that point I have see early cars with this done and later cars without, again not sure if it was a factory thing, or done after the fact, also not sure about the seam welding of the non sunroof early cars, this point may be an urban myth, and 7 & 8's which are fairly easy to source, and of course the lack of any other options that were available for the C2 (other than LSD, CR-1, and AC) The factory M030 suspension was cool at the time, but really didn't take it anywhere close to where it needed to be, so both cars need that.
Anyway, Do I wish there was some secret factory sauce in the motor? Sure, that would have made it more interesting, but at the end of the day, this is a limited production car, lighter in weight, that the factory saw fit to badge with an RS.
VIN is King
The items that make the RSA special are no sunroof, very expensive to have done properly on a C2, manual rack, yes this can be changed, but at what cost and effort? The RSA specific tail (Yes you can buy one and slap it on to a C2, but not cheap), Lt Wt interior, (yes, you can do that to a C2 as well except it's a big job), and maybe the factory rolled fenders on some of the cars (although not proved out yet.) To that point I have see early cars with this done and later cars without, again not sure if it was a factory thing, or done after the fact, also not sure about the seam welding of the non sunroof early cars, this point may be an urban myth, and 7 & 8's which are fairly easy to source, and of course the lack of any other options that were available for the C2 (other than LSD, CR-1, and AC) The factory M030 suspension was cool at the time, but really didn't take it anywhere close to where it needed to be, so both cars need that.
Anyway, Do I wish there was some secret factory sauce in the motor? Sure, that would have made it more interesting, but at the end of the day, this is a limited production car, lighter in weight, that the factory saw fit to badge with an RS.
VIN is King
01-18-2014, 05:04 PM
#59
If my memory is correct the RSA was not a factory concept but a PCNA marketing project. The lack of any increased output is both a negative an a positive but it is a fact so we might as well just accept it.
I feel that the changes that were made to create the base RSA do in fact make it a special car. In that regard a base RSA is something worth a premium over a C2 add a LSD and you have maxed the premium. The rarity factor just does not compute since I would bet there were more RSA's sold in the US than 5 speed C2's in '93 and '94. So once you add back in a radio, AC, and a roof the premium should slide back toward a C2.
So a RSA with a limited slip and no other options would be at the to of the food chain. From there it's down hill to a pedestrian C2.
I feel that the changes that were made to create the base RSA do in fact make it a special car. In that regard a base RSA is something worth a premium over a C2 add a LSD and you have maxed the premium. The rarity factor just does not compute since I would bet there were more RSA's sold in the US than 5 speed C2's in '93 and '94. So once you add back in a radio, AC, and a roof the premium should slide back toward a C2.
So a RSA with a limited slip and no other options would be at the to of the food chain. From there it's down hill to a pedestrian C2.
