r15suk

I replaced my discs and pads about a year ago as they were juddering and I fitted Pagid discs and Pagid pads (standard ones whatever they are) and they have just started juddering again after about 3000 miles. Hence i need to get something sorted before Spa. I was going to get the discs skimmed and then fit new pads that were suitable for track and hard road use.

Now from your experience it appears that there may be an issue with Pagid pads, so do you have any suggestion as to what pads I could try? Maybe try different pads before the skim to see if that get rids of the old deposits? I don't care about brake squeal or dust to be honest.

cheers
Simon

boxsey911

Those Pagid road pads seem to be the worst of the lot at causing judder and I agree that they are likely the cause of your problem. As said, the Hawk blues will definitely scrub off any deposit. They'll do it on a 15 minute drive! Similar, slightly less aggressive pads might do too e.g. the Hawk HP+ or the Ferodo DS2500. They just might take a few more miles to clean them up. Presuming that you've got standard 4 pots at the front and rear, you can get all those options here:

http://www.cambridgemotorsport.com/H...968944928--911

When you put them in, make sure you bed them in by doing a hard stop from 60 to 10 without lock up, followed by 5 minutes without a hard brake. Repeat that about 6 times. Make sure no one is behind you before you do each stop though!

r15suk

Thanks for the info. I'm going to go for the HP+ and try to see if the bedding in process removes the deposits and cures the judder (and saves me money on getting them skimmed). If not and i need to get them skimmed, will it be the same bedding in process again?

cheers
Simon

boxsey911

Yes, with any type of performance pad you bed in when swapping pads. Whether that be after fitting new discs, having them skimmed or simply changing pads. By the fifth or sixth hard stop you'll really feel them start to firm up. The first stop, they'll feel soft/squidgy.

A friend of mine developed judder on his RS when using Pagid blues. A change to different pads and bedding in got rid of the judder on his car too. So I'm very hopeful that you'll get the same result without having to get them skimmed. The only thing I'm unsure about with your set up is the Pagid discs. I've only ever used Sebro or Zimmerman which is what Porsche use.

I presume your changing the pads on both front and rear at the same time?

r15suk

Yep both front and rear.

r15suk

Quick question about brake fluid. I was told that whilst race spec fluid will boil at a higher temperature (making it better for track days, racing etc) it is faster to absorb moisture so should be changed more much frequently than you would normal fluid.

So for the odd track day combined with normal use, would it be a better idea to use DOT5.1, which whilst having a lower boiling point than the race spec fluid, it is higher than DOT4? It also has the same service interval time as DOT4.

Cheers
Simon

Bill Verburg

The only Pagid that I have ever felt to leave deposits was the Orange RS-4-4 race pads which were horrible.

I have used Pagid sport Blue RS4-2(now called their s-line) for 15yrs of street and light track duty and never had an issue save the excess dusting, the gent you are responding to doesn't even know what pads he has, how pertinent do you suppose his opinion is.

There are lots of low dusting street pads out there Minted and Ferodo and Axxis all have low dust brake pads, for track use I do like Pagid Yellow RS19/29 those and various PFC pads seem to be most highly regarded pads used around here.

One thing that does cause problems for most track pads is water, don't put the car away w/ wet pads, some brands are far worse than others in this regard, I little search might show up the complaints of brake dust turned to caustic stone when put away wet and uncleaned.

boxsey911

Hi Bill, by a process of elimination I worked out that Simon was referring to what are sold over here as 'Pagid OEM 964 brake pads' (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong). They're just about the cheapest pad you can buy over here for a 964 (cheaper than Textars) but get bought because Pagid are thought of highly. These are what those particular pads look like when new:



They're probably OK for normal street use but I know of a few people that have tried them for light track use with poor results - overheating and juddering. I also know of people having juddering problems with blues and blacks.

My own problem with juddering came when using those same OEM pagid pads on the rear and Pagid greys (RS15) on the front. This created very bad judder caused by the greys putting deposits on the front. As seen in this pic.



The consensus on the thread I did about the juddering was that the cheap Pagids at the rear could have lead to the normally resilient greys at the front overheating and leaving deposits. Here's what the pads looked like:



The good news was that putting Hawks all round, soon scrubbed up the discs and the judder was gone. The moral for me was to avoid any cheap road Pagids. If I ever use Pagids again they will only be RS29s which are unfortunately super expensive - around $675 over here to fit out all four standard calipers.

KaiB

Steve, the RS29s will last you forever should you drop them in for track days - as well as help reduce rotor wear while out there. This then frees you to run optimal street pads - the best of both worlds. I wouldn't drop the yellows in 'till I got to the track.

As has been mentioned, if you want a bit more rear bias (I say try it if you're comfortable bending the car in with the brakes and can "catch" it (lightly and smoothly, please) with your throttle) drop a set of blacks in the rear.

MAN, I wish I could come play with you boys!!!

robt964

Just got all 4 calipers back from being refurb'd and now want to sort which pads I need.
Reading through the thread here I'm going to opt for the Textar ones so looked them up on Design911 for reference. This is where things got confusing.
My car is 90 C2 with stock 4pots on the front and 993 C4 4pot rears on the rear.
The pads that came out of the front have Textar 96435193903 stamped on the back.
However the image shown for this pad on design911 looks different to mine. My pads have a deep grove through the centre, just like the image for 99335193901.

Now, I understand that the pads can be swapped front/rear with these calipers and sure enough the pads I have appear to fit the rear calipers also.
Design911 states I need pad 96535293904 for the rears but there is not Textar brand available for these.

So what is going on? Why are there 3 different pads listed for what is in essence the same shape pad and application???

Does it in-fact not matter a jot which you get and I should just get 2 axles worth of 99335193901?

http://www.design911.co.uk/fu/pt66_2...Pads-Standard/

boxsey911

Rob, you are right to be confused by that web page!

However, it's likely that the pics may not be representative of the pads that get supplied. You're right that the textar pads should have the groove in the middle.

In theory if you select the 96435193903 part number and tick the textar box, you should get what you want. However, D911 have recently supplied me and rs15UK with Pagid discs when we both ordered Sebro discs (not happy about this). With that experience in mind have a look at the Type911 website:

http://www.type911shop.co.uk/shop/ca...aram=cid%3D%26

Interestingly, they use the 965 part number for the larger C2 pads and C4 pads.

robt964

Thanks for clearing that up Steve

Using the No. 96535293904 as per type911 (GBP 56 ex vat), a quick search reveals RosePassion have them for GBP 50.72 inc vat :-)

jack.pe

On a different note have you ever considered weight loss as a way of improving everything, including braking?

I've lost about 85kgs on my car and can feel the difference in braking as well as handling. Seems to me the best way forward. Some of it is really easy, like replacing the spare, jack and compressor with a can of tyre-weld. That alone saves around 13Kgs. But there are lots of other little things you can do without adversely affecting comfort (rear wiper delete, lighter exhaust, RS Flywheel, engine undertray..).. these cars, like most moderns are riddled with unnecessary weight....of course that does depend on your point of view.

Von Twinzig

Mintex 1144's and Motul RBF 660. Little dust, no squeal, no fade. Get them direct from Questmead for a sensible price. Work on the road and track. Wouldn't put EBC's on my lawnmower.