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3.8 Engine rebuild

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Old 05-14-2012, 01:47 PM
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Porsche964FP
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Default CYLINDER HEADS

I have a question about 964 cylinder heads. As I understand it the real performance gains from bigger valves is down to exhaust ports... although presumably this would ruin the ceramic lining?

I read that Cup cylinder heads are around £3,500?! What are the options regarding cylinder heads and prices?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Old 05-14-2012, 02:00 PM
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Cheeksyboy
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Originally Posted by Porsche964FP
I have a question about 964 cylinder heads. As I understand it the real performance gains from bigger valves is down to exhaust ports... although presumably this would ruin the ceramic lining?

I read that Cup cylinder heads are around £3,500?! What are the options regarding cylinder heads and prices?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Hi Frank

When I was having my engine built I was advised that the 964 had superior port angles to the 993 (and that's before you start opening them out), hence why my engine is 993 bottom/964 top.....

of course there's the 9Meister heads which according to Geoffrey have a design which is much improved over the original factory design...…

but don't forget that any gain from the head could be lost or reduced by other compromises in the build, so make sure your chosen engine builder is viewing the build holistically rather than "selling you" the benefits of one area of improvement....
Old 05-14-2012, 05:21 PM
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m_a_saunders
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Hello Grant,

With a compression ratio of ~12:1, if not more, it's better to be safe than sorry. The engine builder races cars with the same engine in Dakar and the additional oil cooler reduces the oil temperature by up to 20C. If I'm not mistaken it can be ordered from FVD - part number FVD 207 035 00. Fach Auto Tech may have used two for 3.8l Cup cars if I have understood things correctly... When sitting in a traffic jam on the motorway at 30C+ outside temperature, the oil temperature rarely exceeds the half way mark...
Cheers, Mark
Old 05-14-2012, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by m_a_saunders
Hello Grant,

With a compression ratio of ~12:1, if not more, it's better to be safe than sorry. The engine builder races cars with the same engine in Dakar and the additional oil cooler reduces the oil temperature by up to 20C. If I'm not mistaken it can be ordered from FVD - part number FVD 207 035 00. Fach Auto Tech may have used two for 3.8l Cup cars if I have understood things correctly... When sitting in a traffic jam on the motorway at 30C+ outside temperature, the oil temperature rarely exceeds the half way mark...
Cheers, Mark
hi Mark

Thanks for the reply. I can understand additional oil cooling on a race engine, especially in the Dakar, but I tracked my car at the Bahrain F1 track many times and even then, in 40+ ambient, I rarely saw the temp rise into the red.

However, as you say better to be safe than sorry I suppose.

Maybe this gives Frank more food-for-thought!
Old 05-14-2012, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by m_a_saunders

- enlarge the throttle body;
- drop in Wössner 3.8l PC kit with ~12.1 compression, i.e. no machining of the crankcase;
- wide Carrillo RSR conrods;
- ARP headstud kit;
- ARP case through bolt kit;
- Schrick titanium valve retainers;
- Eibach valve springs;
- new valve guides and valves;
- boat tailing of the crank case;
- suffle pinning of the crank case;
- welding of additional aluminum material on the cylinder heads à la 964/993 Cup;
- ADDITIONAL OIL COOLER;
- replacement of the old oil cooler as well as all oil lines;
- 993 3.8 RS fuel injectors, as well as
- lots of other items I cannot think of right now.



Am I happy with the result - yes, definitely.

Would I do anything different - yes, consider installing 993 Cup cylinder heads with the 8mm valves while the engine is apart...
Thanks for the post Mark - seems like an amazing spec. 12.1 compression! What HP figures are you producing - if I may be so bold to ask?

What valves are you running?

Originally Posted by Cheeksyboy
Hi Frank

When I was having my engine built I was advised that the 964 had superior port angles to the 993 (and that's before you start opening them out), hence why my engine is 993 bottom/964 top.....

of course there's the 9Meister heads which according to Geoffrey have a design which is much improved over the original factory design...…
Thanks for the feedback Grant
Old 05-14-2012, 05:44 PM
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Before I forget Cartronic Motorsport in Germany modify original 964 and 993 cylinder heads whereby the flow is apparently 7.5% better than the RSR cylinder heads - www.cartronic-motorsport.de. After reading an excellent article about a black 1973 Carrera 2.7 in the Excellence magazine last year whereby the engine had been optimised with original Porsche parts I would honestly prefer to install RSR heads if money were not an object... At the same time I realise that technology has moved on and there are better solutions out there. In a decade or so it would, however and IMHO, be nice to see an article about a narrow body 964 C4 with a RSR spec engine that had been tastefully optimised over the years...
Old 05-14-2012, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by m_a_saunders
Before I forget Cartronic Motorsport in Germany modify original 964 and 993 cylinder heads whereby the flow is apparently 7.5% better than the RSR cylinder heads
Is this on both sides - exhaust and intake?
Old 05-14-2012, 05:52 PM
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Hello Frank,

It's probably best to give Marc De Siebenthal a call regarding HP figures - I was focused on torque and am very happy indeed. If I'm not mistaken torque levels should be comparable with the 3.6l turbo.

Regarding the valve sizes, they are stock - bigger is not always better...

Cheers,

Mark
Old 05-14-2012, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by m_a_saunders
Hello Frank,

It's probably best to give Marc De Siebenthal a call regarding HP figures - I was focused on torque and am very happy indeed. If I'm not mistaken torque levels should be comparable with the 3.6l turbo.

Regarding the valve sizes, they are stock - bigger is not always better...

Cheers,

Mark
Any N/A engine that gets near to a 3.6l turbo would be amazing as that was quoted, I believe, at 520Nm @4200rpm.

My 3.6 puts out 418Nm @4800rpm, which is still behind the 3.3l turbo (450Nm @ 4500rpm)
Old 05-14-2012, 06:14 PM
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Hi Frank,

Regarding Cartronic and the flow levels, I honestly do not know whether 7.5% applies to the intake and exhaust. I obtained this information from their website. Last year I saw a 993 3.8l motorsport kit from Porsche on sale in eBay in the US and I recall seeing reference to Cartronic on the ECU... I guess it's a small world out there...

Cheers,

Mark
Old 05-14-2012, 06:19 PM
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Hi Grant,

Boat tailing and the compression ratio probably explain a lot... I'll ask Mecacomponents for the power and torque chart and will post it. Piston skirts are also mooned...

Cheers,

Mark
Old 05-14-2012, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by m_a_saunders

Regarding the valve sizes, they are stock - bigger is not always better...
Which is what my research is telling me when coupled with standard 964 exhaust ports...

Originally Posted by m_a_saunders
Regarding Cartronic and the flow levels, I honestly do not know whether 7.5% applies to the intake and exhaust. I obtained this information from their website.
Hmmmm...

Originally Posted by m_a_saunders
I'll ask Mecacomponents for the power and torque chart and will post it.
Thanks Mark.
Old 06-12-2012, 12:18 AM
  #103  
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Wink Where are the charts from Meca?

Originally Posted by m_a_saunders
Hi Grant,

Boat tailing and the compression ratio probably explain a lot... I'll ask Mecacomponents for the power and torque chart and will post it. Piston skirts are also mooned...

Cheers,

Mark
Any luck with getting the HP & TQ charts for the 3.8.
Old 02-08-2015, 01:33 PM
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Your car is clearly the Standard for all 964 rebuilds on here, and you've done a great job at documenting it. From what I can see, unless you made updates that I missed, you are using the stock crank and oil pump and running above 7,000 rpm. Just curious to hear your reasoning behind this, and any issues that might have come up.

Thanks
Old 02-08-2015, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by hockenheimr
Your car is clearly the Standard for all 964 rebuilds on here, and you've done a great job at documenting it. From what I can see, unless you made updates that I missed, you are using the stock crank and oil pump and running above 7,000 rpm. Just curious to hear your reasoning behind this, and any issues that might have come up.

Thanks
Well that's very kind, but there are some awesome builds here.

Crank - cost. Stuck to original that was balanced etc.
Oil pump - not an all out race car in desert temperatures, requires case machining too.

Forged connecting rods allowed for the high rpm amongst other bits of the puzzles. Why? HP and torque. Next is the flat slides and GT3 plenum with uprated injectors as the engine was designed for this intake system - which will result in more midrange torque and few more hps. Engine has been flawless, just the mushy bit behind the wheel needs improvement.

But all of this is covered in the actual build thread - this was just my research thread.
Build thread here: https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...e-rebuild.html

Pls click on the 'Molested' link in my sig for all info and thanks again for the kind words.


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