964 C4 vs Ferrari 348 TS
08-27-2011, 09:17 AM
#17
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Good stuff Dave, I'm very jealous - two fantastic cars!
I completely agree with you about the 355. Having driven one myself, although some years ago now, I remember being a little disappointed about how refined the car was. I was hoping for a more raw driving experience. Having said that, the 355 is a stunning looking car and from outside, sounds awesome (a little muted inside).
Personally, I'd pic the 996 TT. It is one of the 'few' cars I would consider over my C2. The only choice Dave needs to make is "which one shall I take out today' - the lucky fella!
I completely agree with you about the 355. Having driven one myself, although some years ago now, I remember being a little disappointed about how refined the car was. I was hoping for a more raw driving experience. Having said that, the 355 is a stunning looking car and from outside, sounds awesome (a little muted inside).
Personally, I'd pic the 996 TT. It is one of the 'few' cars I would consider over my C2. The only choice Dave needs to make is "which one shall I take out today' - the lucky fella!
08-29-2011, 11:19 AM
#21
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I shared this with a friend of mine who is a former 348 (and 911) owner. His response was:
"Fun thread. The tramlining he is talking about can be completely eliminated via spacers and 18" wheels."
he also mentioned there is quite a bit of info on this on: ferrarichat.com
Good luck with it.
"Fun thread. The tramlining he is talking about can be completely eliminated via spacers and 18" wheels."
he also mentioned there is quite a bit of info on this on: ferrarichat.com
Good luck with it.
08-30-2011, 01:27 PM
#22
Race Car
Thread Starter
I shared this with a friend of mine who is a former 348 (and 911) owner. His response was:
"Fun thread. The tramlining he is talking about can be completely eliminated via spacers and 18" wheels."
he also mentioned there is quite a bit of info on this on: ferrarichat.com
Good luck with it.
"Fun thread. The tramlining he is talking about can be completely eliminated via spacers and 18" wheels."
he also mentioned there is quite a bit of info on this on: ferrarichat.com
Good luck with it.
In fact, I already have spacers on the rear. A few people have mentioned that 18" (355) wheels help a lot - but I must admit that I don't really want to sink £2k into a set of replacement wheels (plus another £850-ish for tyres I guess) immediately after buying the car. Having said that - I do rather like the look of 355 wheels so I haven't completely ruled it out as a winter purchase.... I will probably just try some slightly newer rubber though since I'm sure 13 year old tyres can't be helping.
06-12-2012, 06:51 AM
#23
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Thread Starter
Since there was some interest when I posted the comparison before, I thought I'd give an update now that I'm 10 months into 348 ownership and have a bit more experience of the car.
First, to the handling - which was one of my main areas of concern when I bought it. Sourcing new tyres was not easy - unsual wheel size - but I eventually managed to get hold of some Brigestone SO1s. Of course - they became available when I happened to be visiting the tyre place because I'd just found a big screw in the back tyre of the turbo, so it turned into a rather expensive month. But, they did make a big difference to the handling. The car still doesn't really like surface changes very much - I still think the hard suspension is the cause here - but it no longer results in sudden changes of direction. It just feels a little unsettled rather than it's driving itself and deciding where IT wants to go, and you're simply a passenger - which is how it was before the new tyres were fitted. It does look like they wear pretty quickly though - I am guessing the rears won't manage more than 8k miles max, which is less than I get from the turbo rear tyres!
Strangely, although handling was a concern originally, it's now one of the things that I absolutely love about the car. I've found that flat out acceleration and max braking before each bend doesn't really suit the car - but if you slow down just a bit, and carry the speed through the corners, it feels fantastic. A huge amount of fun, and the term "go cart" really does apply. From a purely "fun" perspective on a twisty road, I have to confess it does beat the turbo quite easily - and, I think it probably beats the 964 too. I do remember one or two instances (on the same road) where the 964 was superb - particularly once late at night where I threw caution to the wind and drove like it was a bright sunny day. But it seems easier to reproduce that feeling in the 348 - although that might be partly because I had a C4 964 - and although I never felt it compromised the handling, I wonder if it is significant in this comparison. I also like the fact that it's not an instant "get in and drive fast" car (like the turbo is) - you really do have to learn it's characteristics, but doing so is a lot of fun.
Reliability / build quality is difficult to judge. Some things have broken - but then again, some things broke on my 964 too. And actually, at the moment there is not one single thing wrong with the 348 as far as I know. But that's partly because I keep fixing it.......
The failed window switch I mentioned in my original post. I bought some new pins for the door connector, and fixed the broken wire. I've actually had to do that twice more since then - the passenger side switch also stopped working, and one day I got home and found the doors wouldn't lock. Again, a broken wire. Each time I do it, I can see that many of the wires look like they will break soon - and I should simply fix them all - but it's one of those things where you think : I'm sure they'll be fine for now......
I had a sudden coolant leak - but that actually seemed to be a result of an over enthusiastic mechanic - the (plastic) drain bolt on one of the radiators had sheared. It was slightly odd - was leak free for about 1,500 miles then started leaking quite quickly. An easy and cheap fix though.
The air con died - because my compressor started leaking. A local air con specialist fitted a new compressor and receiver / drier (OEM parts, but not bought from Ferrari) for a total of under £500. Which seemed like a bargain. When the compressor was replaced, he noticed that the shroud over the alternator had dropped off (metal fatigue I guess) so I replaced that.
Heater panel started playing up over the winter - they are known for being a bit flaky. Mine started resetting itself - which was a bit annoying, since it also includes the clock which reset to zero - and it was tricky to keep warm with a heater panel that kept switching itself off. Turned out to be a simple fix - I removed the heater console, and found clear corrosion on a couple of pins of the connector. Quick spray of electrical contact cleaner, and no problem since.
A change to the law in the UK this year means if your car originally had cats - then it needs to have cats fitted to pass the annual MOT (road worthiness check) - and to be legal. Mine had bypass pipes fitted - according to the history in 2006. Cats from Ferrari are just over £2k per pair - fairly eye watering. Pattern ones were around £350, which I fitted a couple of weeks ago. When I bought the car, I knew one of the cat ECU's didn't work (warning light doesn't come on with ignition). For a very simple electronic box, Ferrari took almost £300 which seemed rather steep - although I've since been told that the independent parts place I use is sometimes more expensive, and a Ferrari dealer would have been almost half that. So I will check in future.
So the car has cost some money in the past 10 months, but nothing particularly excessive - and some of the things that needed fixing were already broken when I bought the car. Even so, at the moment it does feel like I am having to tweak (fix) something on the car about every other weekend. Having said that though, it seems to be an extremely easy car to work on - and not all parts are as scarily priced as I expected. I just replaced the engine lid struts - which cost me £12 each for genuine parts.
I also just ordered all the service parts (oil / air filters, fuel filters, plugs, washers etc) - which totalled about £150 - which isn't too bad. The reason I ordered them, is because I feel the service prices - even at independents - is a total rip off. Service schedule for the 348 is a major (engine out, belt change etc) every 3 years and two minor services in between (there are some differences in the minors - 6k one is basically oil / air filter changes, 12k includes gear oil, fuel filters and plugs). I accept that the major (engine out) will be expensive - there is a clear reason why, given the labour involved in removing / refitting the engine. But I cannot justify the minors. For the minor annual service - and this is 6k, so not including gearbox oil, plugs or fuel filters - I was quoted prices between £650 - £750 inclusive. I know the price of the parts is not excessive - so this is basically the same work as a minor service on the turbo, which costs about £300 inclusive. I've therefore decided this is not something I'm willing to pay - minor services will be carried out at home, and I will get the major done at an independent every 3 years.
Sadly, we seem to be having no summer in the UK this year - just constant rain. On the odd dry day, I am using the car - but roof off opportunities have been rare even though we're half way through "summer".
So do I miss the 964? Not really - although, the guy I sold it to brought it round the other day to show me the seat refurb he'd had done, and I did feel a bit of a pang then - it is a very good looking car! But, I know that if I'd kept it I'd hardly be using it - whereas the Ferrari is used at least once most weeks even if the weather has been poor.
Overall, the experience so far has been a positive one. Although it is extremely vain, the positive reaction you get from other people when you drive it - kids sticking their thumbs up, people commenting when you park etc - does make me smile. I love the handling now, despite the 348 having a reputation for handling like a shopping trolley at high speed. Things have broken - but nothing major so far and nothing more than I'd expect from a 20 year old car - although having said that, it's a 20 year old car that doesn't do very many miles, and has done about 150k miles less than my 964 had. Taking that into account would suggest the 964 was a lot better built after all. But, I can fix most things myself and nothing so far has been at all complicated or particularly expensive - even if the cat ECU was probably the first part I've bought which I think was totally over priced. When I list the problems here, it doesn't seem to match the number of weekends I've needed to fix something - but actually, I enjoy that part too most of the time.
Although I think 355s are prettier - and even 360s are beginning to look a lot better looking to me (although would be too wide for my garage) - I am now very sure I made the right decision buying something a bit more classic. The lack of power steering, dog leg gearbox etc all add to how different it is from my daily car and I think make me appreciate it all the more. Plus, I think the age of the car is one of the things that makes it easier to work on, even if it also means that needs to be done more often.
If anybody does feel they have a Ferrari itch that needs scratching at some point, as long as you buy carefully I'd certainly recommend it. 348s are bargain price these days - at least in the UK (although they've gone up slightly since I bought mine) - and although you definitely need an emergency fund, I've been pleasantly surprised at most things I've had to repair so far. Let's hope the next 10 months don't change my mind!
First, to the handling - which was one of my main areas of concern when I bought it. Sourcing new tyres was not easy - unsual wheel size - but I eventually managed to get hold of some Brigestone SO1s. Of course - they became available when I happened to be visiting the tyre place because I'd just found a big screw in the back tyre of the turbo, so it turned into a rather expensive month. But, they did make a big difference to the handling. The car still doesn't really like surface changes very much - I still think the hard suspension is the cause here - but it no longer results in sudden changes of direction. It just feels a little unsettled rather than it's driving itself and deciding where IT wants to go, and you're simply a passenger - which is how it was before the new tyres were fitted. It does look like they wear pretty quickly though - I am guessing the rears won't manage more than 8k miles max, which is less than I get from the turbo rear tyres!
Strangely, although handling was a concern originally, it's now one of the things that I absolutely love about the car. I've found that flat out acceleration and max braking before each bend doesn't really suit the car - but if you slow down just a bit, and carry the speed through the corners, it feels fantastic. A huge amount of fun, and the term "go cart" really does apply. From a purely "fun" perspective on a twisty road, I have to confess it does beat the turbo quite easily - and, I think it probably beats the 964 too. I do remember one or two instances (on the same road) where the 964 was superb - particularly once late at night where I threw caution to the wind and drove like it was a bright sunny day. But it seems easier to reproduce that feeling in the 348 - although that might be partly because I had a C4 964 - and although I never felt it compromised the handling, I wonder if it is significant in this comparison. I also like the fact that it's not an instant "get in and drive fast" car (like the turbo is) - you really do have to learn it's characteristics, but doing so is a lot of fun.
Reliability / build quality is difficult to judge. Some things have broken - but then again, some things broke on my 964 too. And actually, at the moment there is not one single thing wrong with the 348 as far as I know. But that's partly because I keep fixing it.......
The failed window switch I mentioned in my original post. I bought some new pins for the door connector, and fixed the broken wire. I've actually had to do that twice more since then - the passenger side switch also stopped working, and one day I got home and found the doors wouldn't lock. Again, a broken wire. Each time I do it, I can see that many of the wires look like they will break soon - and I should simply fix them all - but it's one of those things where you think : I'm sure they'll be fine for now......
I had a sudden coolant leak - but that actually seemed to be a result of an over enthusiastic mechanic - the (plastic) drain bolt on one of the radiators had sheared. It was slightly odd - was leak free for about 1,500 miles then started leaking quite quickly. An easy and cheap fix though.
The air con died - because my compressor started leaking. A local air con specialist fitted a new compressor and receiver / drier (OEM parts, but not bought from Ferrari) for a total of under £500. Which seemed like a bargain. When the compressor was replaced, he noticed that the shroud over the alternator had dropped off (metal fatigue I guess) so I replaced that.
Heater panel started playing up over the winter - they are known for being a bit flaky. Mine started resetting itself - which was a bit annoying, since it also includes the clock which reset to zero - and it was tricky to keep warm with a heater panel that kept switching itself off. Turned out to be a simple fix - I removed the heater console, and found clear corrosion on a couple of pins of the connector. Quick spray of electrical contact cleaner, and no problem since.
A change to the law in the UK this year means if your car originally had cats - then it needs to have cats fitted to pass the annual MOT (road worthiness check) - and to be legal. Mine had bypass pipes fitted - according to the history in 2006. Cats from Ferrari are just over £2k per pair - fairly eye watering. Pattern ones were around £350, which I fitted a couple of weeks ago. When I bought the car, I knew one of the cat ECU's didn't work (warning light doesn't come on with ignition). For a very simple electronic box, Ferrari took almost £300 which seemed rather steep - although I've since been told that the independent parts place I use is sometimes more expensive, and a Ferrari dealer would have been almost half that. So I will check in future.
So the car has cost some money in the past 10 months, but nothing particularly excessive - and some of the things that needed fixing were already broken when I bought the car. Even so, at the moment it does feel like I am having to tweak (fix) something on the car about every other weekend. Having said that though, it seems to be an extremely easy car to work on - and not all parts are as scarily priced as I expected. I just replaced the engine lid struts - which cost me £12 each for genuine parts.
I also just ordered all the service parts (oil / air filters, fuel filters, plugs, washers etc) - which totalled about £150 - which isn't too bad. The reason I ordered them, is because I feel the service prices - even at independents - is a total rip off. Service schedule for the 348 is a major (engine out, belt change etc) every 3 years and two minor services in between (there are some differences in the minors - 6k one is basically oil / air filter changes, 12k includes gear oil, fuel filters and plugs). I accept that the major (engine out) will be expensive - there is a clear reason why, given the labour involved in removing / refitting the engine. But I cannot justify the minors. For the minor annual service - and this is 6k, so not including gearbox oil, plugs or fuel filters - I was quoted prices between £650 - £750 inclusive. I know the price of the parts is not excessive - so this is basically the same work as a minor service on the turbo, which costs about £300 inclusive. I've therefore decided this is not something I'm willing to pay - minor services will be carried out at home, and I will get the major done at an independent every 3 years.
Sadly, we seem to be having no summer in the UK this year - just constant rain. On the odd dry day, I am using the car - but roof off opportunities have been rare even though we're half way through "summer".
So do I miss the 964? Not really - although, the guy I sold it to brought it round the other day to show me the seat refurb he'd had done, and I did feel a bit of a pang then - it is a very good looking car! But, I know that if I'd kept it I'd hardly be using it - whereas the Ferrari is used at least once most weeks even if the weather has been poor.
Overall, the experience so far has been a positive one. Although it is extremely vain, the positive reaction you get from other people when you drive it - kids sticking their thumbs up, people commenting when you park etc - does make me smile. I love the handling now, despite the 348 having a reputation for handling like a shopping trolley at high speed. Things have broken - but nothing major so far and nothing more than I'd expect from a 20 year old car - although having said that, it's a 20 year old car that doesn't do very many miles, and has done about 150k miles less than my 964 had. Taking that into account would suggest the 964 was a lot better built after all. But, I can fix most things myself and nothing so far has been at all complicated or particularly expensive - even if the cat ECU was probably the first part I've bought which I think was totally over priced. When I list the problems here, it doesn't seem to match the number of weekends I've needed to fix something - but actually, I enjoy that part too most of the time.
Although I think 355s are prettier - and even 360s are beginning to look a lot better looking to me (although would be too wide for my garage) - I am now very sure I made the right decision buying something a bit more classic. The lack of power steering, dog leg gearbox etc all add to how different it is from my daily car and I think make me appreciate it all the more. Plus, I think the age of the car is one of the things that makes it easier to work on, even if it also means that needs to be done more often.
If anybody does feel they have a Ferrari itch that needs scratching at some point, as long as you buy carefully I'd certainly recommend it. 348s are bargain price these days - at least in the UK (although they've gone up slightly since I bought mine) - and although you definitely need an emergency fund, I've been pleasantly surprised at most things I've had to repair so far. Let's hope the next 10 months don't change my mind!
06-12-2012, 09:15 AM
#24
Three Wheelin'
Thanks a ton for this follow up. I've been aching for a 348 intensely these last couple of months as my 964 gets what feels like a near ground-up rebuild.
Still keen to "try" one for a year or so and your experience makes it seem totally doable.
Please do keep us posted and if I pull the trigger - I'll add my experiences as well.
Enjoy!
RK
Still keen to "try" one for a year or so and your experience makes it seem totally doable.
Please do keep us posted and if I pull the trigger - I'll add my experiences as well.
Enjoy!
RK
06-12-2012, 11:17 AM
#25
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The 964 has it's own charm and I was thinking of going the Ferrari route when I found a gem of a Lotus Esprit V8TT that I've always loved. It's been 2k miles and I am loving the different character of the Lotus vs the Porsche. I'm fortunate in that I kept the 911 while adding the Esprit as both are so different....but they both do it for me.
348's are great cars and offer the Ferrari thrill at an affordable price. But like anything, it's the maintenance that you got to be careful of. I'm thinking 355 next....and your experiences offer good real world insight into the classic Ferrari ownership.
348's are great cars and offer the Ferrari thrill at an affordable price. But like anything, it's the maintenance that you got to be careful of. I'm thinking 355 next....and your experiences offer good real world insight into the classic Ferrari ownership.
06-12-2012, 12:07 PM
#26
Three Wheelin'
My mate has a '78 Esprit S2 that he's looking to unload. I'd love to add that to the stable. I'd feel a bit like a cut-price James Bond.
Then there is my long time love of 308 GTBs. Man this obsession never ends.
Then there is my long time love of 308 GTBs. Man this obsession never ends.
06-12-2012, 01:12 PM
#27
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308 and 355 do it for me visually. Stunning beautiful design. 308 is classic and the 355 makes some seriously sexy sounds. Add a Capristo or a Tubi and the glory is amplified. That's one thing the Lotus cannot (or any other manufacturer really) match the Ferrari cars....the aural sensations of a small block Ferrari V8 is spine tingling.
06-12-2012, 01:19 PM
#28
Race Car
Thread Starter
Agreed. I didn't like the look of 308s much when I was looking - thought they looked a bit dated, but they've grown on me a lot since. And I think the interior is lovely - switches etc. are truly classic.
And 355 is definitely prettier than the 348 in my opinion - but I was put off by it being a tad too modern. Plus, I think they suffer the same kind of price inflation vs the 348 that 993s do vs the 964.
Having said that - if money was no object then 308, 348 and 355 wouldn't even get a look in and I'd have a 458 on my driveway. Stunning looking car.
And 355 is definitely prettier than the 348 in my opinion - but I was put off by it being a tad too modern. Plus, I think they suffer the same kind of price inflation vs the 348 that 993s do vs the 964.
Having said that - if money was no object then 308, 348 and 355 wouldn't even get a look in and I'd have a 458 on my driveway. Stunning looking car.
06-12-2012, 01:32 PM
#29
The 355 is probably an all around better car than a 348, which I have considered a 348CS. However I was terrified of it. Someone had done some transmission work on it and the reverse lights stayed on always.
If money was no object
and you can keep your Ferrari.
If money was no object
and you can keep your Ferrari.
06-12-2012, 02:51 PM
#30
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Agreed. I didn't like the look of 308s much when I was looking - thought they looked a bit dated, but they've grown on me a lot since. And I think the interior is lovely - switches etc. are truly classic.
And 355 is definitely prettier than the 348 in my opinion - but I was put off by it being a tad too modern. Plus, I think they suffer the same kind of price inflation vs the 348 that 993s do vs the 964.
Having said that - if money was no object then 308, 348 and 355 wouldn't even get a look in and I'd have a 458 on my driveway. Stunning looking car.
And 355 is definitely prettier than the 348 in my opinion - but I was put off by it being a tad too modern. Plus, I think they suffer the same kind of price inflation vs the 348 that 993s do vs the 964.
Having said that - if money was no object then 308, 348 and 355 wouldn't even get a look in and I'd have a 458 on my driveway. Stunning looking car.