Clutch travel issues - PICS & VIDEO
08-28-2011, 08:34 PM
#46
Burning Brakes
Is the pushrod that comes out of the clutch master adjustable? (It kinda looks like it might be).
Given the leverage factor, I reckon 5mm extension at the pushrod is probably worth an inch or two at the top of the pedal.
Given the leverage factor, I reckon 5mm extension at the pushrod is probably worth an inch or two at the top of the pedal.
08-28-2011, 10:27 PM
#47
I had a similar issue. Finally fixed it by replacing the clutch pedal itself.
The roll pin had worked its way out. I first replace the roll pin with a shoulder bolt, but still had play. Then tried a new roll pin. Finally I realized it was the clutch pedal itself. Through extensive use (I believe with the roll pin partially out), the hole had ovalized in the shaft. I ordered a new pedal, installed with new roll pin, and finally got (virtually) no play from pedal to clutch master cylinder actuation. My clutch pedal was even with my brake pedal and I could actually get the full travel specified for the clutch pedal.
Much better clutch action now. (All this was after bleeding the entire brake/clutch system multiple times, adjusting the pedal endstop, and replacing the slave cylinder and hose to it. All along it was the clutch pedal itself. )
The roll pin had worked its way out. I first replace the roll pin with a shoulder bolt, but still had play. Then tried a new roll pin. Finally I realized it was the clutch pedal itself. Through extensive use (I believe with the roll pin partially out), the hole had ovalized in the shaft. I ordered a new pedal, installed with new roll pin, and finally got (virtually) no play from pedal to clutch master cylinder actuation. My clutch pedal was even with my brake pedal and I could actually get the full travel specified for the clutch pedal.
Much better clutch action now. (All this was after bleeding the entire brake/clutch system multiple times, adjusting the pedal endstop, and replacing the slave cylinder and hose to it. All along it was the clutch pedal itself. )
08-30-2011, 08:27 AM
#48
Nordschleife Master
Sounds really frustrating that you've done all this work - roll pin, new slave, bleed - and you've still got problems. Can you re-cap what the issues are:
Pedal dropping to floor?
Difficulty engaging 1st gear when engine on?
Difficult shifting when on the move?
Pedal dropping to floor?
Difficulty engaging 1st gear when engine on?
Difficult shifting when on the move?
08-30-2011, 09:27 AM
#49
Three Wheelin'
If you look at the image from the workshop manual, we cannot get distance B to specified 14cm,with the pedal board in place, even with the stop adjusted all the way back. With the pedal board out, the throw is around 14cm. With the pedal board removed the clutch feels really nice and smooth with quite a high biting point.
I think the hydraulics are now OK (the master may not be perfect but I think its functional) and its actually something in the pedal mechanism, or even the location of the pedal board. So Babalouie and nugatory1 are on the right lines I think.
Its not helped by the fact that all the diagrams I have are for the lhd pedal box, which is laid out differently.
Last edited by alexjc4; 08-30-2011 at 02:30 PM. Reason: spelling
08-30-2011, 01:04 PM
#50
Nordschleife Master
It's sounds odd that the pedal board is in some way restricting to the clutch pedal travel. Having just looked at the pics of the pedal on Frank's 'progress thread', it appears that the clutch pedal is much nearer the dash than the brake pedal (in their resting positions). In mine, the pedals are just about in line with each other.
The diagram from the workshop manual suggests the only way of setting the resting position of the clutch pedal would be to adjust the actuator rod of the master cylinder (as already suggested by Babalouie). If so, I would say that it needs to be adjusted out rather than in. Maybe in the past somebody has turned it in, thinking (mistakenly) it would help them get more leverage on a worn clutch?
The diagram from the workshop manual suggests the only way of setting the resting position of the clutch pedal would be to adjust the actuator rod of the master cylinder (as already suggested by Babalouie). If so, I would say that it needs to be adjusted out rather than in. Maybe in the past somebody has turned it in, thinking (mistakenly) it would help them get more leverage on a worn clutch?
08-30-2011, 03:55 PM
#51
Drifting
I thought that the clutch was at a different height to the brake pedal, and one trick to getting a good toe and heel was to adjust them so they were the same height as yours is Steve, at least thats what my memory on the boards here tells me, The rod adjustment normally only needs to be done if clutch changes, or simiar to get the correct amount of throw out. If you get it wrong you can cause damage on the clutch release arm etc from forcing it beyond its range, again this is from memory.
Kevin
Kevin
08-30-2011, 05:22 PM
#52
Drifting
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the feedback Gentlemen - appreciated.
Pedal isn't dropping to the floor, it just feels like the pedal board does not allow enough travel. The clutch pedal is further away from me than the brake pedal - the two are not inline.
I have difficulty engaging gear upon start up if the car has been sitting for a while the pedal seems to drop. My solution to this thus far has been to hook my foot round and pull it towards me.
Great feedback Alex, your a star to say the least! I feel that T-shirt doesn't cover all the help! It'll have to be at-least coffee when I next see you!
How do I adjust the clutch MC rod, is it possible?
I have difficulty engaging gear upon start up if the car has been sitting for a while the pedal seems to drop. My solution to this thus far has been to hook my foot round and pull it towards me.
If it turns out the MC rod can be adjusted, that will likely fix it, I think the brake pedal is adjustable like this, not sure if I saw any threads on the end of the clutch MC rod though..
From what I understand, not dropping to the floor at all, but maybe a little difficulty engaging gears. The problem we were trying to solve with the clutch slave change was that the the pedal throw was so short the biting point was almost on the floor.
I'd seen reports of this "ovaling" so we had a feel for the play in the roll pin area, Frank's fabricated replacement roll pin is a good tight fit, and while there is a little play, translating to maybe 2cm at the pedal end, its doesn't feel like the root cause.
If you look at the image from the workshop manual, we cannot get distance B to specified 14cm,with the pedal board in place, even with the stop adjusted all the way back. With the pedal board out, the throw is around 14cm. With the pedal board removed the clutch feels really nice and smooth with quite a high biting point.
I think the hydraulics are now OK (the master may not be perfect but I think its functional) and its actually something in the pedal mechanism, or even the location of the pedal board. So Babalouie and nugatory1 are on the right lines I think.
Its not helped by the fact that all the diagrams I have are for the lhd pedal box, which is laid out differently.
From what I understand, not dropping to the floor at all, but maybe a little difficulty engaging gears. The problem we were trying to solve with the clutch slave change was that the the pedal throw was so short the biting point was almost on the floor.
I'd seen reports of this "ovaling" so we had a feel for the play in the roll pin area, Frank's fabricated replacement roll pin is a good tight fit, and while there is a little play, translating to maybe 2cm at the pedal end, its doesn't feel like the root cause.
If you look at the image from the workshop manual, we cannot get distance B to specified 14cm,with the pedal board in place, even with the stop adjusted all the way back. With the pedal board out, the throw is around 14cm. With the pedal board removed the clutch feels really nice and smooth with quite a high biting point.
I think the hydraulics are now OK (the master may not be perfect but I think its functional) and its actually something in the pedal mechanism, or even the location of the pedal board. So Babalouie and nugatory1 are on the right lines I think.
Its not helped by the fact that all the diagrams I have are for the lhd pedal box, which is laid out differently.
How do I adjust the clutch MC rod, is it possible?
08-30-2011, 06:57 PM
#53
Three Wheelin'
Lol, no worries dude. The way I see it, life's short so play with cars at every chance you get, even if they don't happen to be your own. Anyway I am a terrible host, I think I might have talked at you for eight hours straight and practicaly forgot to offer any sustenance.
I've just dropped mine off with GtOne, for the starter motor and proper alignment. The starter didnt look like much fun, access is worse than the clutch slave. And I thought better of doing the alignment with string.
Anyway back to your clutch, I was looking at babalouie's pedal box, and it seems the rhd c2 has a different pedal box again.
I wonder if there is any scope for adjustment in the little screw labelled A above?
I've just dropped mine off with GtOne, for the starter motor and proper alignment. The starter didnt look like much fun, access is worse than the clutch slave. And I thought better of doing the alignment with string.
Anyway back to your clutch, I was looking at babalouie's pedal box, and it seems the rhd c2 has a different pedal box again.
I wonder if there is any scope for adjustment in the little screw labelled A above?
08-31-2011, 05:10 AM
#54
Nordschleife Master
Frank, I was going to say, check under the rubber boot to see any signs that the pushrod can be adjusted. However, having just looked at your pics I see that the boot looks like it has split and I can't see any adjustment. My guess at this stage is that your master cylinder is buggered and the push rod is not fully returning to its resting position. Hence why the pedal is higher than the brake pedal and you're not getting full travel.
08-31-2011, 05:31 AM
#56
Drifting
Thread Starter
Frank, I was going to say, check under the rubber boot to see any signs that the pushrod can be adjusted. However, having just looked at your pics I see that the boot looks like it has split and I can't see any adjustment. My guess at this stage is that your master cylinder is buggered and the push rod is not fully returning to its resting position. Hence why the pedal is higher than the brake pedal and you're not getting full travel.
I'll make a short video of the conundrum and post it up...
08-31-2011, 05:40 AM
#57
Three Wheelin'
08-31-2011, 01:05 PM
#58
Drifting
Thread Starter
Cheers Alex.
Heres the video gentlemen. This feels a bit like a quiz game show riddle.
"Please examine the following video - you will have 20 minutes to decipher the fault. GO!"
As you'll see the clutch pedal is further back than the brake. When the clutch is pulled out as much as possible it is still further back than the brake pedal, as result I feel that replacing the master will not solve the problem.
Look forward to your feedbacks!
Heres the video gentlemen. This feels a bit like a quiz game show riddle.
"Please examine the following video - you will have 20 minutes to decipher the fault. GO!"
As you'll see the clutch pedal is further back than the brake. When the clutch is pulled out as much as possible it is still further back than the brake pedal, as result I feel that replacing the master will not solve the problem.
Look forward to your feedbacks!
08-31-2011, 01:39 PM
#59
Drifting
Thread Starter
EDIT - Break through!
Without the MC Rod attached the clutch pedal comes forward much more... Could the MC Rod be too short? Mine measures 7.5 cm, how long is yours?
Without the MC Rod attached the clutch pedal comes forward much more... Could the MC Rod be too short? Mine measures 7.5 cm, how long is yours?
08-31-2011, 01:46 PM
#60
Three Wheelin'
Sounds inline with either of the two possibilities above.
Can you see if there is any way to unscrew the joint on the end of the rod to extend it?
Btw be careful not to ding the rod, even a little, as this will damage the seals in the mc. So dont hold it with pliers.
Can you see if there is any way to unscrew the joint on the end of the rod to extend it?
Btw be careful not to ding the rod, even a little, as this will damage the seals in the mc. So dont hold it with pliers.