Unkle

Had a very interesting run at Bedford Autodrome in the UK on Monday.

It was only 1*c and pretty much raining all day, so the track never got to a stage of drying out and this made for some slippery conditions, with lots of people barely getting 20 laps. I have to agree on Bedford being a little average, but for a first timer to a UK track it would be ideal with large run offs and a variety of corners, if not very much gradient or camber. I wanted it to rain so i could push the car with little tyre wear or stress on the car and I got my wish. However I think some were pushing way past ability levels, and loads of people spun.

My car specs:
C4 1992
Bilstein Suspension
Eibach Springs
21mm Anti roll bar
Bridgestone SO2 N rated



Good.
I didn't spin the 964, so perhaps I wasn’t trying hard enough? but i tried really hard to get it to swap ends to see what it was like and where the limits were. I tried to throttle and then lift off through the 2nd gear corners and it just wouldn't move. The first left leads into a short straight and chicane, and this leads into an acceleration point through turn 4 & 5 in 3rd and 4th gear. I was able to accelerate hard left then blend into the right with full throttle with heavy rain. Nothing managed to unsettle it even in my hands. So with all the rain I was very impressed, and it made me think that I was worrying far more than I ever needed to. Regardless of the position of the engine, I couldn't get it to misbehave and couldn't find the excessive understeer i read about even in the wet, just controllable fun.



I was surprised by how fast some people were pushing it. I got 125mph on the back straight but mostly kept it to 100mph, I didn't feel it provided any benefit to cane it in a straight line and then brake heavily so I tried to just be smooth/fast in the corners and build speed each lap until I felt the car slide, not visually, but through the seat of your pants. I suppose this is a plus point as it never really caught me out but was suggesting what was going on all the time well in advance. In the last corner, the car felt on the limit each lap with a hint of movement, but 15 cars approx span on the corner throughout the day (The corner has a new section of tarmac in the inside edge and this gave great grip until you met the older tarmac, RWD cars seemed to not like it) so I think the 4WD/PDAS was my saving grace.

Bad.
I found that I couldn't do more than 3 laps. a warm up, a flying and a slow down lap. Why? Not sure, the car would squirm more on the end of the flying lap or the start of the next lap and I don't know why so I always slowed and used this lap to cool down before coming into the pits. The brakes would possibly do a few more but the tyres couldn’t. I dropped the pressures as suggested, as they were climbing after a few tester laps so kept then between 34-36 psi hot, it was hard when its so cold and the temp drops, but i was still surprised at the speed of the degradation in handling. I am running Bridgestone SO2 N rated but the rears are cracked in between the tread due to age (2 ½ years old and many heat circles) and all will be changed this week for the Michelin Pilot Sport 2 so hopefully this will improve the situation. Although i am going back to 205 front to save a few kilos unsprung weight.



The thing is, with the limited amount of laps each run and how cold it was I wouldn't have got much track work done if it was a hot summers day? Any ideas why?
Either way I came away thinking more about the way the car performed and how it amazed me with the levels of progressive controllable movement at speed through the corners. Was it the quickest car no, but it was fun and am now looking at track pads, to go with the new tyres. Any suggestions are always welcome?

Henry964

Yes, maybe and just maybe you were a bit slow in your laps, I managed to buy pieces of land in various corners in every circuit I rode and that was with dry weather....

I am still learning

Unkle

Yeah its possible or very likely,
but i could get the car to move about on the track in the gears up to 3rd using the throttle so i assume i was somewhere near the limit (i think) but it was very easy to control i thought. I don't think i was overtaken on my flying laps either, only on my slow down or warm up, so not sure if it was bad technique or bad tyres that made them squirm and loose control after 3 laps, but surely in the rain on a cold day it shouldn't happen, should it?

But yeah its an interesting learning curve

boxsey911

My guess is that it is just down to them being bad tyres as you've already eluded to. BTW what do you mean by squirming? Front, rear, braking or accelerating?

Unkle

Its hard to explain, but the car would move about without my input in the corners. On the warm up or flying lap i created the movement by applying the throttle or lifting during the turn to the apex or on corner exit. But it seemed like even when i was at 75% for example it would have more movement than i was applying on my fast lap. It wasn't from understeer in deceleration or acceleration but more oversteer mid corner.

So it was just kind of moving about, which wasn't consistent with speed or load but just with time on track. (THe reason i did a warm up was because the oil temp would be on zero between each run after i popped for a cup of coffee or stopped for food). Still managed 30 laps approx in total.

John Boggiano

Do you mean the wheels felt as if they were moving about within the tyres, or you were short on grip and the tyres were moving about on the track?

If the former, I found that having a very slightly lower pressure in the front than the rear could be quite stabilising. Interestingly, since having my suspension thoroughly refreshed/refurbed, this squirrely behaivour has disappeared anyway, but that's what i used to do.

Unkle

To be honest John, I'm not sure i am competent enough to know the difference in the seat. I think it was the latter though but thats only cause i never considered the first option on the day..

I will get the new tyres and give it a go with a little less in the front. I had decided on Conti but a 964 RS owner on the day convinced my of PS2

911Jetta

That's what's so great about taking these cars to the track...these cars have such a reputation, and the track gives you such great environment to explore your limits and the car's reaction at those limits (not the car's limits, but the drivers).

A couple weeks back I attended my 2nd track day and was greeted to a wet track. Having done a dry track day a few months before, I wasn't quite prepared for the difference...I was sliding all over the place and spun a couple times (my car is a C2). Of course I was focused on being smooth, but with the cold and the rain, it felt like I had 50% of the traction of a dry day, but I was going 80% of the speed. Needless to say, by the end of my fifth session session (had a ton of track time, obviously many were smarted than me and waited for drier weather), I got really good at feeling the car as it started to enter into a slide! What fun!

Totally different experience than my previous "dry" DE. Regardless, I had a great time with my instructor and learned a lot. I definitely had a greater bond with my car on the drive home (is that even possible?).

Your story is great because it shows that track days really "focus" your mind on the car's dynamics...instead of just driving it around.

Frank 993 C4S

Wet track = everything happens at a slower speed. Good to see that you had a great time. I'd get my alignment checked and new tires asap. You might see a huge difference.

christallon

As a driver, you will learn so much more in the wet. Rohrl said "driving starts where traction ends." So true. Feeling the car behave around you as you apply force either accelerating or braking creates an understanding inside you about how to control the car using these forces to your advantage. It's a thrill to experience the car in different directions and still know you have the reins. Enjoy it. The tires will make a huge difference!

Redcoat

OT but great pics Unkle, and a nice diverse range of cars there.

altarchsa

Squirming = AWD constantly adjusting to the loss of traction at various wheels?

Great post. C4 advantages eloquently stated, as well as your personal driving ability influences and equipment impact on this off-weather day.

I have been touting the great handling of the C4, especially in the wet, here for some time, but was always careful to acknowledge that racers might be critical of the extra weight, understeer, etc.

Unkle

Thanks for the comments all.

The alignment was carried out at Porsche a couple of months ago with only 300 mile in between, I know thats no guarantee but I am thinking it’s still the tyres at the mo. I like the Rohl comment as I think that sums up the day of exploring the boundaries I had. I have also got all new mounts (engine and gearbox front control arms etc) along with the suspension so every little helps to keeping it tight and communicating quickly before its too late I think, I would imagine a sloppy suspension and engine all adds to the potential for spins, but if I do another in the UK I would like it wet again just to try the tyres in a similar weather condition.

The one thing I really like in contrast to a blast to the Ring was that I could attack the corner the same each lap as we were only allowed to overtake on the straights so you could practice the same corner each lap from the racing line until you lost adhesion. The Ring is “anything goes” so you rarely get to take each corner the same or at the same speed from one lap to the next. This was a great addition to a track day which I never thought would be so beneficial.

The weight issue is one thing that did concern me before the purchase of the car last year altarchsa, but a C2 with Air Con some uprated audio and a heavy driver just about cancels it out to my car asit has none of that and a little removed to help.

The Orange Mk1 escort was on slicks all day Redcoat, while some elise were on Toyo R888, they seemed to have a few spins


Track pics to follow when I get them from the photographer

boxsey911

Was that by any chance Julian in a black 964RS? If so he's the same guy I posted a video of in your other thread.

Unkle

No, this guy had a Blue one. We was with his son and a race prepared M3 (son races) they were both knowledgeable about the track, the conditions, and we discussed tyres...