Really bad brake judder
Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,095
Likes: 3
From: Cheshire, UK
*BRIEF UPDATE*
Yesterday I went on my planned trackday (Oulton Park). Prior to the day I had:
1. Put on new front rotors (the ones pictured above have been stored for checking in the future).
2. Fitted new Hawk Blue pads to the front and rear brakes (I was very impressed with the price and service from Pegasus Autoracing who shipped them from the States to the UK in only 2 days).
3. Removed the front aluminum spacer shims
4. Purchased a new set of steel open lug nuts to take with me (I left the old aluminum nuts on for the initial testing).
I ran for the whole day (8 x 20 min sessions with rests in between) without a sign of judder or fade. It was wet all day, so the brakes may not have been worked as hard as on a dry. However, I was on them longer than normal because of the extended braking zone created by the track being wet.
So at the moment I've learned that the judder was most likely related to the rotors/pads and I didn't need to try the new lug nuts but I'm going to use them in the future as they're better for visual checking that they're not unwinding. I've also learned that the Hawk blues are very good on track - yesterday they felt as strong as the Pagid RS15s I used to use and have plenty of feel - they allow threshold braking as I only got in to the ABS 3 or 4 times throughout the whole day.
So far so good....but it will now be a long time until my next trackday before I get to try them out again.
Yesterday I went on my planned trackday (Oulton Park). Prior to the day I had:
1. Put on new front rotors (the ones pictured above have been stored for checking in the future).
2. Fitted new Hawk Blue pads to the front and rear brakes (I was very impressed with the price and service from Pegasus Autoracing who shipped them from the States to the UK in only 2 days).
3. Removed the front aluminum spacer shims
4. Purchased a new set of steel open lug nuts to take with me (I left the old aluminum nuts on for the initial testing).
I ran for the whole day (8 x 20 min sessions with rests in between) without a sign of judder or fade. It was wet all day, so the brakes may not have been worked as hard as on a dry. However, I was on them longer than normal because of the extended braking zone created by the track being wet.
So at the moment I've learned that the judder was most likely related to the rotors/pads and I didn't need to try the new lug nuts but I'm going to use them in the future as they're better for visual checking that they're not unwinding. I've also learned that the Hawk blues are very good on track - yesterday they felt as strong as the Pagid RS15s I used to use and have plenty of feel - they allow threshold braking as I only got in to the ABS 3 or 4 times throughout the whole day.
So far so good....but it will now be a long time until my next trackday before I get to try them out again.
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From: Highland Park, IL
Thanks or the follow up, Steve. 
FYI - Please make sure to give your wheels a good cleaning after using the Hawk Blues. The dust can be especially stubbon if allowed to sit too long. Nothing a bit of rubbing compound or polish can't fix but immediate attention is advisable.
Otherwise, they're certainly a good compound for the track. And the price and service from Pegasus, yes, make it an easy choice.
FYI - Please make sure to give your wheels a good cleaning after using the Hawk Blues. The dust can be especially stubbon if allowed to sit too long. Nothing a bit of rubbing compound or polish can't fix but immediate attention is advisable.
Otherwise, they're certainly a good compound for the track. And the price and service from Pegasus, yes, make it an easy choice.
Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,095
Likes: 3
From: Cheshire, UK
Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,095
Likes: 3
From: Cheshire, UK
Thanks or the follow up, Steve.
FYI - Please make sure to give your wheels a good cleaning after using the Hawk Blues. The dust can be especially stubbon if allowed to sit too long. Nothing a bit of rubbing compound or polish can't fix but immediate attention is advisable.
Otherwise, they're certainly a good compound for the track. And the price and service from Pegasus, yes, make it an easy choice.
FYI - Please make sure to give your wheels a good cleaning after using the Hawk Blues. The dust can be especially stubbon if allowed to sit too long. Nothing a bit of rubbing compound or polish can't fix but immediate attention is advisable.
Otherwise, they're certainly a good compound for the track. And the price and service from Pegasus, yes, make it an easy choice.
And even after extensive use of my normally reliable 'Autoglym wheel cleaner' it was still baked on:
As these are only my track wheels I'm not too bothered about them being pristine but it still looks like I need to find a better wheel cleaner and maybe next time, have a go at cleaning if off before I leave the track.
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From: Highland Park, IL
Yes, Steve, you'll need to use something a bit stronger than wheel cleaner and apply some elbow grease. 
I used MAAS polish and applied it with a soft towel. It doesn't take the shine off like a rubbing compound and works well for this job.
http://www.maasinc.com/automotive.aspx
I used MAAS polish and applied it with a soft towel. It doesn't take the shine off like a rubbing compound and works well for this job.
http://www.maasinc.com/automotive.aspx
Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,095
Likes: 3
From: Cheshire, UK
Another update.
I've now done 7 trackdays since changing the front rotors that were causing the judder (see pics earlier in thread) and have been using Hawk blues all round. Now on a second set of fronts (I junked the first set after five track days when they got down to about 5 mm). Still on the first set of rears.
The brakes have performed brilliantly every time. No fade. No judder. Great feel. Very happy with this set up.
I've now done 7 trackdays since changing the front rotors that were causing the judder (see pics earlier in thread) and have been using Hawk blues all round. Now on a second set of fronts (I junked the first set after five track days when they got down to about 5 mm). Still on the first set of rears.
The brakes have performed brilliantly every time. No fade. No judder. Great feel. Very happy with this set up.
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Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,095
Likes: 3
From: Cheshire, UK
UPDATE - 1 year later!
So you don't have to read the whole thread the summary so far:
This thread was started two years ago because I got bad brake judder after only a few track days. This was after fitting new rotors and pads. The suspicion was that the front rotors had warped owing to using different pads on the front and rear. Causing the fronts to do too much work and had overheated as a result. The problem was remedied by fitting new front rotors and Hawk blues front and rear. I've run this setup for a couple of years, been through a few sets of blues in that time and never had the brake judder again.
A few weeks ago, I decided that the current front rotors were now so worn out that I needed to replace them. I had kept the nearly new 'warped rotors' so tried an experiment: I put them on and fitted Hawk blues to go with them. Within a hundred miles the rotor faces cleaned up beautifully. I then went on a track day and got NO judder at all! So, the rotors hadn't warped after all. As some suggested in this thread, the judder on those rotors must have been caused by uneven deposits of the pagid greys on the rotor faces.
So, my experience is very much the same as this article:
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...nd-other-myths
i.e. brake rotor warping is very rare. Getting the right brake pads that are suited to how the car is used, is the key to avoiding judder.
Hopefully this will help others who get this problem in the future.
So you don't have to read the whole thread the summary so far:
This thread was started two years ago because I got bad brake judder after only a few track days. This was after fitting new rotors and pads. The suspicion was that the front rotors had warped owing to using different pads on the front and rear. Causing the fronts to do too much work and had overheated as a result. The problem was remedied by fitting new front rotors and Hawk blues front and rear. I've run this setup for a couple of years, been through a few sets of blues in that time and never had the brake judder again.
A few weeks ago, I decided that the current front rotors were now so worn out that I needed to replace them. I had kept the nearly new 'warped rotors' so tried an experiment: I put them on and fitted Hawk blues to go with them. Within a hundred miles the rotor faces cleaned up beautifully. I then went on a track day and got NO judder at all! So, the rotors hadn't warped after all. As some suggested in this thread, the judder on those rotors must have been caused by uneven deposits of the pagid greys on the rotor faces.
So, my experience is very much the same as this article:
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...nd-other-myths
i.e. brake rotor warping is very rare. Getting the right brake pads that are suited to how the car is used, is the key to avoiding judder.
Hopefully this will help others who get this problem in the future.
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From: Cheshire, England
I reckon you have just solved a problem that I have been plagued with for years.
I find that driving hard-ish on the road gets my steering wheel shaking really badly. Sometimes I don't even really seem to have been working the brakes to set it off, but I guess that's because the pads are still brushing the deposits on the disc, heating up and starting to grab. When I do brake quite hard, the shake can get really severe.
I know that I tend to brake too gently for too long, and this puts more heat into the whole thing.
So, I shall get my discs skimmed, think about switching to slightly harder pads and try to be on and off the brakes quicker. All adding up nicely.
:-)
I find that driving hard-ish on the road gets my steering wheel shaking really badly. Sometimes I don't even really seem to have been working the brakes to set it off, but I guess that's because the pads are still brushing the deposits on the disc, heating up and starting to grab. When I do brake quite hard, the shake can get really severe.
I know that I tend to brake too gently for too long, and this puts more heat into the whole thing.
So, I shall get my discs skimmed, think about switching to slightly harder pads and try to be on and off the brakes quicker. All adding up nicely.
:-)
Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,095
Likes: 3
From: Cheshire, UK
Hi John, I'd heard that you'd also struggled with this. What pads have you been using?
I didn't have the discs skimmed, the harsh Hawk blues cleaned them up all by their selves. The only problem to be aware of with the Hawks is that the dust is really nasty and makes a mess of the wheels - see pics above.
From talking to others that have had the same problem, Pagids (blue, black and grey) have been the common denominator. It's only the (very expensive) yellows that seem immune from the problem. So, it's the Pagids I'm avoiding from now on and will be trying some other makes soon (to try and get something that works like the Hawks but without the nasty dust).
I didn't have the discs skimmed, the harsh Hawk blues cleaned them up all by their selves. The only problem to be aware of with the Hawks is that the dust is really nasty and makes a mess of the wheels - see pics above.
From talking to others that have had the same problem, Pagids (blue, black and grey) have been the common denominator. It's only the (very expensive) yellows that seem immune from the problem. So, it's the Pagids I'm avoiding from now on and will be trying some other makes soon (to try and get something that works like the Hawks but without the nasty dust).
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From: Cheshire, England
I am just running the standard Porsche pads. Seemingly they may be a little too soft and deposit prone for my road driving.
I don't fancy the nasty brake dust though. Anyone got any ideas what pads I ought to be looking at for the road? Don't want something that will squeal.
I don't fancy the nasty brake dust though. Anyone got any ideas what pads I ought to be looking at for the road? Don't want something that will squeal.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 242
From: Mainhatten / Frankfurt
I had the problems too this year since i upgraded to bigblacks.
The steering wheel was shaking so badly, that it was horrible to drive with the car. I was in a porsche-centrum with a motorsport department and they tried to skimm my front rotors. The weren´t able to get all the deposit-areas off. The material was to hard.... (they used the ebc system..).
After changing the front rotors (cheap turbo 3.6 rotors i use with the turbo 3.3/RS calipers) and switching to ebc yellowstuff the problem seems to be gone. Now, i´ve still a vibration from the rear, despite of switching to yellowstuff even on the rear...
I ordered a new set of rear rotors last week (the "cheap" RS-stuff with 951xx partnumber) and hope, the brakes will be perfect after that mod.
In germany, the hawk´s are not street legal and i darent´t to use them daily...
regards..
The steering wheel was shaking so badly, that it was horrible to drive with the car. I was in a porsche-centrum with a motorsport department and they tried to skimm my front rotors. The weren´t able to get all the deposit-areas off. The material was to hard.... (they used the ebc system..).
After changing the front rotors (cheap turbo 3.6 rotors i use with the turbo 3.3/RS calipers) and switching to ebc yellowstuff the problem seems to be gone. Now, i´ve still a vibration from the rear, despite of switching to yellowstuff even on the rear...
I ordered a new set of rear rotors last week (the "cheap" RS-stuff with 951xx partnumber) and hope, the brakes will be perfect after that mod.
In germany, the hawk´s are not street legal and i darent´t to use them daily...
regards..