Henry964

This year I got beaten in the Porsche Cup events by 2 friends, one drives a 1993 964 RSA, the other a german 1988 3.2 they are both better drivers than me so I´m trying to improve the nut behind the wheel....

I am also thinking on buying a set of H&R springs and a Steve Wong Chip (my 964 is originally from Canada and with no mods whatsoever)

Which ot this 2 mods is going to give me the best bang for the buck?
I pay everything a 100% more than in the states (taxes + shipping)

Do you think that this 2 are the best options for getting a lap time improvement?

Anything else that you believe I can try?

911Jetta

New sticky tires... (obvious choice)

New motor mounts... (not so obvious choice)

I've really been impressed with how my Wevo motor mounts have really tightened up the car. Feels much more solid coming into turns. This isn't a modification that will dramatically drop your lap times, the benefit comes from the fact that the car feels much more predictable.

The WEVO 997 SS Engine Mount is designed to offer more precise control of the drivetrain mass. Our experience with the whole family of SS Mount products has illustrated that most drivers experience the sensation of the drivetrain unit moving relative to the chassis mass. The drivetrain in a Porsche is independently suspended from the sprung mass of the car via the compliance in the engine and transmission mounts. This drivetrain assembly represents approximately 25% of the sprung weight of the car. The opportunity for forces to move the drivetrain comes from many inputs, such as the torque reaction of vehicle acceleration loads, the bumps and variations in the road surface and the lateral forces created in cornering and braking. That degree of independent movement of the drivetrain is responsible for some of the “sloppy” feeling that is evident when the performance envelope of the vehicle is explored. The higher the forces, the higher the deflections in the hydro-elastic mounts, therefore the deflections and movement of the drivetrain mass begin to operate out of phase with the movement of the car as a whole. For Racing the factory eliminate the hydro elastic mounts and install solid engine mount positions – marrying together the mass of the drivetrain and the sprung mass of the car. While solid mounts might be considered a conventional wisdom for a race car, this practice has an enormous impact on NVH (Noise Vibration Harshness) making it totally impractical for a street driven car.

The WEVO 997 SS Engine Mounts skew the performance intentions of the O.E. engine mounts and control movement by allowing smaller deflections under the same loads. Your drivetrain remains “independently suspended” but managed by a much stiffer suspension – much like stiffer dampers, anti-roll bars or springs could replace the original parts in your front and rear axle suspension configurations.

Unlike solid engine and transmission mount systems, the Semi Solid installation has no metal to metal contact and retains sufficient isolation from engine vibrations to protect your sensitive engine control electronics, sound system and instrumentation systems.

Wevo's text for the 964 MM is not that great, the text for the 997 describes how they feel in my 964:

Like all deviations from the original design, there is some compromise. In this case the compromise is the potential for extra noise and vibration to heard and felt in the passenger compartment. Our testing has indicated that the change in NVH is a fair exchange for the performance improvement. A tighter feeling chassis, one with quicker left- right response, more predictable gear change precision and stability under braking. In essence, if you have modified your car in any way, loud exhaust, aftermarket suspension, lightweight seats, lightweight interior….any of these systems are just as likely to have increased the NVH quota for your car and the WEVO 997 SS Engine Mounts might be a somewhat transparent addition to your tuning regiment in terms of NVH.

Dan J.

This is a great way to ask this question about how to go faster. It'll be interesting to see what people contribute. Here's some initial thoughts...

1. Spend time with an instructor. Spend some of your track time as a passenger in your car or a similar car people who are known for being fast, smooth and safe. Maybe ride with the guys you are trying to beat if they fit that description. It can really open your eyes to sit next to someone who makes the most of the car. There may be guys that have fast cars, but bad habits...ask around at the track for those who are known for getting the most from their car, whether it's a stock 914 or a GT3. Being a passenger can be terrifying, but is the only way to really understand the limits and a car's capability to carry speed and momentum.

...as for the car

1. Tires - if you aren't already using sticky track tires (I have no idea what they cost in AR) but that would be a relatively easy way to increase the car's capability. If cost is an issue, maybe you can buy the take-off's from someone just to give race tires a try.
2. Springs/struts - adjustable if possible, but this opens you up to potentially more changes that make sense to do "while you are in there". Sway bars, camber plates, bushings...look at it as a package. You'll want a good corner balance and alignment after making the change, so it's more economical to do it all at once. If just the springs are in the budget for now, that's certainly a good initial step and will make the car handle better.
3a. Brakes/pads - although your stock brakes have a lot of capability, you may not know what your brakes are capable of until you've ridden with some really fast drivers. If you drive at a hilly or track with heavy braking areas, you'll start noticing braking problems as you get faster. In some cases, you can keep up with faster cars by catching up to them in braking areas.
3b. Seats - proper seats and belts can make a big difference in how you feel what the car is doing, and spending less energy hanging on. This get's more significant as you move into raising the grip and braking capability (see above). You'll shave some weight from the car as well.
Have fun!
Dan J.

BlueHeeler

The easy fix is the nut behind the wheel. A good driver can get in pretty much anything and go fast.

IME the most direct way to go faster is to first understand the theory. It is easy enough to learn the concepts in a book like Secrets of Solo Racing, Going Faster!, Speed Secrets: Professional Race Driving Techniques, etc.

Once you fully understand the fundamentals, go practice at every autocross you can. Hope for rain, you can learn more with less traction.
When you think you have fully applied your knowledge, have a fast guy ride with you and coach. Better yet, ride with a fast guy and see what they do.

Nine11

My thoughts are that once you feel the car is holding you back...then you can put money into making it faster. Until then, it's all driver. Like heeler said, a slow driver will drive a fast car slow, but a fast driver can make a slow car fast.

boxsey911

Best bang for buck is instruction from a pro driver. Transferable to other cars too

Steven C.

I agree with Blue completely on this. I have read most of the books he lists and got a new one for Christmas yesterday from my race buddy. It basically took me 5 years to learn how to go fast. Once through this then suspension and brakes in that order always ahead of motor. The whole theory of Porsche to begin with.

aj986s

Ditto on some time with a paid instructor.

Also, data acquisition if you don't already have. Being able to review & compare lap data can be very enlightening.

crg53

Henry, if you have a proper GO-Kart track near where you live, where you can rent Racing Karts, give that a try, you will be surprised how much you can learn from that, it is inexpensive and will teach you the art of driving faster than anything else.

joey bagadonuts

Lots of good advice. If your shocks are old, then those should be replaced. Stiff rebound is critical for fast transitions. With worn dampers, the car moves too much: leans, dives, floats. It needs to be tight--glued to the tarmac to go fast.

Instruction, reading, seat time (alone and with others) will enable you to extract the most from your car.

amr89c4

Good advice, and I concur

Instruction including class time
Seat time
Suspension or Tires, depending on the condition of your current suspension/tires
Instruction and seat time
Don't forget instruction and seat time

P2BE

Go to school: Skip Barber or similar. Nothing better than theory and practice, you can try the MX-5's, they are safe and fast. They don't drive like an 911, but you will learn a lot of basics that you will then be able to apply in your car by yourself and even better with the help of a pro-driver.

The car updates are also helpfull.

I found that improving my driving skills were much better than adding things to the car, what good are they if you can't use them?

Good luck!

If this don't work, take your friends out to the bar the night before, get them wasted, feed them nasty food, get them in trouble and have them get kicked out of the bar.......................

race911

Anything more than a beginner driver is going to blow past the stock (especially nearly 20 year old) OE springs and shocks. I'd say tires, too, but it looks like you're already running 17's.

Are you seconds a lap down to the competition? If so, then yes maximizing what you've got helps.

Chip (e.g. better acceleration)? Highly overrated. I successfully ran RSA #1 competitively against highly prepared (then) C class 993's on pure acceleration.

Ultimately, with RSA #2 I'm about 3 seconds down on a 2:05ish lap from RSA #1 with a factory stock car upgraded with only Euro RS Bilsteins and some old Eibach progressive springs. (Similar tires/pads.) You can do a LOT with minimal prep.

BlueHeeler

How long have you been racing? How much of your success involves technique over bolt on parts?

IME bolting on does not make a driver faster. Exception being race tires. They can make someone go faster if they are skilled braking later, higher corner speed, and getting on the power earlier.

Henry964

Thanks to all for your very good advice and comments!!!

My car shocks are Bilsteins, I had them installed in 2007 when I bought the car,the springs are original (EEUU-Canada height) and the rest of the car is untouched/unmolested from original with 100000 miles on the engine and clutch (I can´t be sure of the clutch)

I will keep trying to improve my driving skills, since I think there lies my biggest chance of improvement.
I did take lots of driver training courses in the past but only one with my 964
I know I can be fast, when I was doing solo racing with my 924 ( very underpowered compared to my 964) I won several events getting laps that were many seconds faster than the second clasified, but in the class I am now the level of driving is much higher
Those friends that are beating me in the track work for themselves so they have more time/energy to take driving lessons, I work as a manager in a very big company so I spend 10/12 hours a day working M-F and cannot take many days off