MMK110464

Hello everybody

I live in Caracas (Venezuela) and like most of you I've been a Porsche fan since I can remember. In my country there are very few Porsches compared to the USA and most of them are driven only so often because of the high crime rate. Also, maintenance costs are sky high.

However, I decided to look for a relatively "old looking" Porsche ( I know that no Porsche looks old) to try and keep a low profile. Hence, I started looking for a 993 as my primary option.
All the available 993s were in very bad shape except for a beautiful 1998 C4S Black/Tan that passed the PPI with flying colors but was detected by my indy as stolen (it was).

I decided to call a guy that I have known for many years (I wouldn't call him a friend because we have never socialized) who I knew had a Porsche since 1996 and who could give me advice regarding my search for a 993. He gave me some advice and casually mentioned he was selling his 964, to which I didn't react since I was firm about getting a 993. I had to call this friend again to ask for advice (he is a very polite guy) and we ended up setting up a date for me to check his car.

Here is the data I have available for the car:
P-964, '93 (Manufacture date 07/92), 39K miles, Silver/Silver (not sure about the interior color)
Asking Price: $25k
First owner from 1993-1996
Actual owner from 1996-Today
The car has 2 keys, all original stickers, tool kit, air compressor (not working), spare tire, A/C working fine, 17" tires, working horn, working sun roof, working electrical windows, working electrical locks, no warning lights in dashboard, working wing (it goes up and down manually and automatically), no smoke on start.

My only previous experience driving a Porsche was a 2005 997, so the observations that follow are not either good or bad: I am just trying to paint the best picture I can for you guys to judge.

When I saw the car I have to admit it looks much better in person than in pictures. I drove the car for about 1/2 hour and felt that the clutch and brakes were very heavy and required that I exert great force to operate them. I had to press the clutch way down to achieve a smooth shifting. Acceleration was good and even. I think the rpms at idle were hunting a little bit.
After I drove the car, the owner took the wheel of the 964 and we went for a ride. I immediately notice his driving expertise and the car came alive. He was able to achieve high speeds very rapidly and demonstrated the car stability by making sudden moves and restoring the driving line without a problem. He also had to use the brakes extensively and the braking was much more effective than when I drove the car.

The exterior is in pretty good condition (the usual small dings) and all the whells have some kind of scratching (some more than others). The owner volunteered the fact that he once crashed the right wheel side of the car and per Porsche requirements the front axle (I am not sure this is the name of the part) was replaced. He also told me that he thinks the car needs and alignment. Also, I believe the lower part of the front spoiler seems deformed (the lines are not parallel). If I buy the car I plan to buy 18" wheels and go with the maximum width allowed (I think the car needs a more aggressive stand)

The interior is in pretty bad condition (light colored interiors are a nightmare) and if I buy the car I plan to change everything (except the roof lining and the dashboard) to black. I have and estimate of over 7K that includes GAHH seats and silver knit carpets
Please take a look at the photo of the back window seal which is deteriorated but I don't know if it means anything.

I included the maximum number of photos allowed because I have notice you guys have a keen eye to dissect every one of them

I also included a photo of the options sticker and would appreciate if somebody can decode it for me.

Please forgive me for such a long post but I figure the only way you can help me is for me to be as informative as possible.

Thanks in advance for your help,

Moses

MMK110464

I posted this thread about a week ago and was very hopeful about the feedback I thought I would receive based on my experience reading the forum for so long and reading thread after thread how everybody received help with their queries.

However, I have received no replies to my post and I don't know why. I believe this is my first post and I am not very familiar with the posting rules. Did I post my request incorrectly?

Regards;

Bearclaw

Never noticed your post before. Here are your options and here's where to decode them:
http://www.kindel.com/porsche/options.asp

Code Option Description
231 choice of tyres (bridgestone/conti/michelin or pirelli) (968)
331 AM/FM Cassette w/2 door speakers
403 Pressure cast 17" wheels
437 Comfort seat left
454 Automatic speed control
494 2 speakers on back shelf
494 Amplifier system
650 Sunroof
C02 Equipped with catalytic converter
XD4 Porsche Crest Rim Caps

Nice car with low miles. Body gaps look good and no obvious paint mismatch. I'd be interested to hear more about the "crash" and what was done to fix it.
The front "smile" is a quick fix. Now, about the interior: GEEZ LOUISE!!! Looks like WWF Wrestling inside there. The leaky sunroof really bothers me. I don't understand people not fixing stuff like that. That coupled with the wheel and undercarriage damage equals: your pal is rough on a car.
If he's had it for 12 years, I'd want to see complete service records. And of course you'll want a PPI.
Interesting that the price is similar (or less) to what I would expect to see it in the US.
ps I'd love to have your gas prices.

dave morris

Moses,
The car looks pretty good to me. I like the exterior color. Not wild about the interior color ... but what the heck ... it's what it is. You'll have to decide if that is a deal buster. The price seems about right. Very low mileage ... probably a plus. The first thing I noticed about the pictures was what looks like mold by the rear window. Have never seen that. I'd ask for an explanation. Where was the car stored? Be sure to look under the front carpet and especially in the area of the battery (for rust). The wear on the steering wheel and the shifter seem unusual for a car with such low mileage. I'd ask about that too.
The most important thing to do is get a pre-purchase inspection (PPI). Hopefully you can find a shop that has experience with 964s. Put it up on a lift. Look at everything. If you see a lot of oil evidence on the bottom of the case/transmission, make sure you know where it's coming from and what it will cost to fix. I'd get a compression check and a leakdown done.
The "smile" on the front grill isn't worth worrying about. It can be corrected easily.
This isn't meant to be an "evaluation". Just a few observations and a couple of recommendations.
Good luck.

MMK110464

Barry:

Thanks for the reply and for the decoding. I am glad to hear there was nothing wrong with my post.

I agree with you that the exterior looks very good and the interior is a disaster. However, I have to admit that with and interior color so light, it must be pretty hard to maintain it clean.

The crash, according to the current owner, was against the front right wheel and the repair was done by Porsche. According to him, Porsche insisted on a more expensive repair than the insurance company wanted to accept and he ended up paying Porsche himself and then fighting and settling with the insurance company. I believe this shows his dedication to the car, but I agree with you that additional research must be done regarding this issue. I expect to take it to a independent Porsche specialist but I would be interested to know what would you suggest I look for.

The rubber seal photo I posted is not located at the sunroof but around the rear windshield. Do you believe that it deteriorated because a leaky sunroof or you just thought the photo belonged to the sunroof seal?

He doesn't have service records but I know the indy that has taken care of his car all this years and I believe he is a good guy. I chatted with him several times about this and other cars I've looked into, and he told me that the car was regularly serviced and that the owner did a $3K job on the engine about 3 years ago. I don't know if it was a top end but it might have been because of the cost. This same indy has steered me away from other P-cars that I was interested in buying which also were serviced by him, so I don't see why he would lie when he recommends this car.

Your observation about the price was very keen. Indeed, the price is very good and I suspect it is because he recognizes that the interior is in such a bad shape (I estimate it would cost me about $8k to fixt it) and because he wants to avoid posting and ad to sell the car and having to deal with unknown people which could prove to be dangerous given the insecurity we face in my country.

I would like to do a leak down and compression test but I am not sure if this kind of tests are done here. I will have to find out.

Regarding the price of gas, yes I know it sounds good, but you have to know about the other side of the coin: pot holes everywhere, speed bumps galore, very few and poorly maintain highways and insecurity. I would rather have $4 per gallon gas and your transit infrastructure.

By looking at the engine, can you draw any conclusions?

Thanks again for your input and I hope other chime in;

Moses

Bearclaw

Moses:

I must say, you seem very knowledgeable and are going into this with your eyes wide open. I think you're on the right track. My goof on the sunroof comment, since I don't have one I was guessing that's what it was. But that's an interesting observation - I'm not sure where the sunroof drains route to, but but they may be involved in what you're seeing at the window seal. The other poster brings up a good point: strange amount of interior wear for a car with only 39K miles.

I don't know enough about the suspension geometry on these cars to tell you what to check for, but plenty of folks here do and I'm sure someone will elaborate on this. Not sure how much you can deduce about the engine by looking at it, except that the amount of dirt looks normal and nothing seems to be missing, no evidence of unusual oil discharge anywhere.

Interesting observations about your country, and the parameters you have to work within.
Good luck!

dave morris

Another observation. The wear and tear in the interior may not support the odometer reading. MAY not. The worn/torn floor carpet near the left side footrest stands out. The black carpeting on the floor w/ the light carpeting on the transmission tunnel indicates it didn't come from the factory that way. Ask why?

The engine compartment looks OK to me.

When were the valves last adjusted?

Danz C4

Welcome to the list. Your post and questions are well received and expertly formatted. The codes are easy and well known. On the other hand, only you can decide if you want to get into this car. I'll de-code the codes, and give you my opinion about what you will have to deal with in this car.

You really should try to get a copy of Adrian Streather's book, "Porsche 911 - Enthusiast's Companion". This is the textbook on the 964 with 636 pages of everything you need to know.

Also, this is a great link with lots of details, http://www.porsche964.co.uk/.

There are two hits on this VIN at http://www.carfax.com/. That's not necessarily bad, but does indicate the car was originally registered in the USA. It'll cost you $25 to find out if it's important.

VIN Number: This is a 1993 coupe, Normal engine, with Seat belts and airbags for USA.
Type: Model 964, Carrera 2 Coupe.
Engine Code: Normal 1992 engine.
Transmission Code: Rear wheel drive manual.
Paint Code: Polar Silver Metallic

Code Option Descriptions:
09991 manufacture from the exclusive-programme
231 choice of tyres (bridgestone/conti/michelin or pirelli) (968)
331 AM/FM Cassette w/2 door speakers
403 Pressure cast 17" wheels
437 Comfort seat left
454 Automatic speed control
494 2 speakers on back shelf
494 Amplifier system
650 Sunroof
C02 Equipped with catalytic converter

In my opinion, for US$25k, it is about $10k too high. You have a clutch that will need replacement soon, about $3000. The brakes probably need at least a fluid replacement, pads and rotor refresh, about $1,000. With the owner admitting a crash to the front, that just means $$$ to fix right. The alignment alone will be several hundreds of $$. Those white face gauges are not original. If you want the standard black face, that will cost about $200 each to refit. That leaky gasket is easy to replace, less that $100. You need a distributor vent kit, less than $100. The spoiler is an easy fix. 18" wheels are not approved by Porsche on that car. With the non-original speedometer, seats well used, dirty fan, and hard clutch, I suspect the indicated mileage is way too low for that car. I'm guessing closer to 80,000 miles actual. CarFax will tell you what's going on there.

With you ready to spend another $7k on the interior, 18" wheels and tires at about $2k, then new shocks and springs at another $2k, you'll have close to $45k in that car to make it right. Don't forget, if you put all that work into that car, then you might be able to sell it for $25k.

I'd keep looking for a 964 or 993 that deserves that kind of investment. As someone around here says, "...buy the BEST car you can..."

Best regards, Danz C4.

MMK110464

Dave:

I don't like the interior color either and I would change everything to black if I purchase the car.

I agree with you in that the wear of the steering wheel is very unusual for such a low mileage car and the odometer readout might not be accurate. On the other hand, the car was never stored and was used daily. I know that it may seem strange to you that a car with 15 years and only 38k miles was used daily, but the commutes in Caracas are relatively short albeit with a lot of traffic so that might explain the excessive wear (low miles but a lot of trips).

Good observation about the black stripe of carpet. It was put there by the owner to try and hide the excessive wear that the original carpet was showing because of its light color.

I will have to ask about the valves. Is this important to know?

When I first saw the seal I thought that maybe there was a leak on the rear windshield or that maybe the rear windshield was shattered in an accident and when replaced, the seals were not properly installed. Is there any way to confirm if this is the original rear windshield?

Thanks for the observation about the odometer. Now you got me thinking...is there a way to know if the odometer has been tempered with?

You can be sure I will look into the rust issue in the places you mentioned and I will do a compression and leakdown test if available.

Thanks for your input;

Moses

dave morris

When you test drive the car, get a feel for just how tight the steering feels. Is there "play" as you turn the wheel to the left/right? There shouldn't be any. Also when you have the car up on a lift take a close look at all the suspension/steering components. Compare what you see on the right (damaged) side with what you see on the left side. Also check for play in the wheel itself ... left to right/up and down ... as it is hanging on the lift.

dave morris

Well, not really, but you can look closely at the manufacturer name on each window section. They should all be the same. Selig, I think.

As to the odometer reading, order a Carfax.

aeroman

too much wear and tear for miles. either that or he has sandpaper for hands and never washes them.

MMK110464

Danz:

Thanks for your thorough reply. I welcome your bluntness.

You are right that a Carfax will be necessary to further my knowledge about this car. That said, the car drove very strong, and as I wrote in my post, when the owner took the wheel the car really came to live and it felt very stable, more than I would expect for an 80k mile car (although I have to say I have never driven a car with more than 60k miles)

Your cost analysis is very complete and accurate and I appreciate it. I am guessing that the hard clutch and brakes are not normal since you take for granted that I will have to change the former and redo the latter. Am I right?

Can the PPI (without major disassembling) determine how long will the clutch last?

Why do you mention new shocks and springs? Because I want to go with 18" wheels?

You can be sure I will keep looking for my first Porsche, but I would like to exhaust every possibility with this one, since I believe the owner will have to go down from his original price because all the issues that have been brought to my attention. If the final price is right and the mileage and the PPI turn out OK, then I might consider the purchase. However, I must admit that your very detailed evaluation has put a dent on my initial good overall impression of this car.

Thanks again;

Moses

MMK110464

Aeroman:
The sandpaper hands is a very good theory
I can't imagine even an 100k mile car with that steering wheel wear. If you look closely, the wheel has a small piece carved out!

The only thing that might explain this wear in the steering wheel is the security device the owner uses (a red steering wheel lock that can be seen in the photo that shows the handbreak and the shifter).

I really hope this is the reason for the wear so the mileage of the car can be trusted.

Thanks for your reply,

Moses

aeroman

Look at the shifter handle, etc. Its all brown. Emergency brake, yuck