mesa87

Gentlemen,

I'm thinking about a 964 and found an online article about some of the potential issues with the car.

http://www.porsche964.co.uk/history/964bio.htm


I was hoping that some of the members here would have dealt with these at some point and could provide me with estimates for these repairs.

1. Engine Oil Leak
2. Dual Mass Flywheel
3. Clutch replacement
4. Rear Blower Fan Resistor

Thanks in advance for your help...

911URGE

Josh -

Rear blower fan resistor was part of a recall campaign but that part is no more than $30 - definately make sure this is done - could lead to engine fires.

Rocket Rob

964's are very reliable but expensive to repair.

1. Depends on what's leaking. The cost of repair will be comparable to your 993 motor. The engine design is very similar.

2. DMF replacement part is approx $1,000. I would do this in conjunction with a clutch job.You need to drop the engine. Ball park labor is $2,000.

3. Clutch parts are around $700.

4. See post #2

MisterRisky

While I hear this said a lot, this has not been consistent with my experience. I have not replaced either my clutch or flywheel, however.

When you think about these prices keep in mind that the probability that you will have to do these procedures is not 100%. Its hard to say exactly what the probability is, but if the car passes PPI you are probably safe assuming that the car will not need a clutch/flywheel work for at least a year or two depending on how you drive. Beyond that your probability of replacement is probably < 10% a year. If you enjoy turning your own wrenches, the price for repair is also much lower.

So sock away $100 a month into a money market account after you buy your car. By the time you need a clutch and/or flywheel you will very likely have saved up enough to cover all the costs plus some upgrades.

Rocket Rob

MisterRisky,

I did not intend to put down the 964s. I love them and have bought a second one myself. I was just trying to emphasize the importance of a good pre-purchase inspection. You should know what you are buying and then make an informed decision if the car is worth the asking price of not.

My "new" coupe had a number of little things wrong with it when I purchased it. Its taken more $$$ than I expected to repair them all. The good news is that I'm almost done. I took it out for a spin last week and loved it. It reminded me why we love these cars.

Bottom line: I like your recommendation of setting aside $100 per month.

MisterRisky

No offense taken. Sorry if my post came off "retaliatory". I agree that if your car needs some sorting out it can take quite a few dollars sometimes to sort it out. I was just trying to balance that with the original poster's question.

General rant not related to Rob's comments:

It's easy to get scared of a 15 year old car when you read things online or in the Porsche books about scary sounding repairs. In addition there are simpletons giving advice like "buy the newest Porsche you can afford." This oversimplified advice really addresses the severity of potential problems but it does not address the probability of these repairs. I agree with Rob and others who put a lot of emphasis on a good, independent, PPI. What one is doing with a PPI is trying to get some comfort about the probability of future repairs and failures.

I may be looking at this differently than many folks as I am a financial risk manager professionally. In my mind, if I can understand the probability of failure times the cost of repair (i.e. severity) then we know the expected value of future ownership. The problem is getting comfortable with the probability of failure. That is hard, but I think that there are some good indicators and some not so good indicators of failure probability.

Many new buyers look at physical interior wear, for example, as an indicator for how "babied" the car has been and then assume that a babied car has a lower probability of future failure. While that relationship may exist to some degree, I don't think interior wear is a good predictor of mechanical failure. I believe that the used Porsche market greatly overvalues a "clean" car with full records, pretty interior, no exterior wear, etc. I LOVE that this is the case. When I bought my 964 I found a car that had a dirty interior, broken head light, cracked fog light, minor road rash, slight oil leak, limited records, high mileage, and dirty engine compartment. It scared the pants off of buyers who were shopping using "clean" as an indicator of future cost of ownership. however, NONE of these issues were expensive to get sorted out. I got a great deal! I have spent about 3K on upgrades and cleaning the car up, but I am still ahead.

A PPI with leak down and a good going over will be a better indicator of future cost of ownership than anything else. If you want sport suspension and other upgrades, factor them into the price you are willing to pay.

Manny Alban

My 964 track car ran up to 80K miles on the original DMF. I switched to a LWF not because the DMF went bad, but because it was a track car and I wanted better performance. Both of my 964's on 90's. Neither one had the head leaking problem. Have experienced leaks on the race car from old lines and, bad valve covers and one cracked chain cover. I've been using my other 964 as a daily driver on nice days. Great little car.

elbeee964

Woow-ah, cowboy -- back up the boat.

That 'limited records' + clean PPI holds all the cold comfort to me of a still-hanging sword of Damocles.
There may be nothing to sort out -- now... Might be no outward signs, either.
But do I wanna calculate severity based on a lack of evidence? Or the hope that borderline evidence (of neglect) was PPI-seen? Or appreciated?
One of my favorite science-truisms: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Risk -- I like ya, bro -- truly! -- you're an honest broker in weighing evidence -- but with a potential $10k+ rebuild 'bullet' laser-aimed at my wallet, we split opinions on this one. (history's value.)
And I'll caution toward a fistful of receipts AND a "guilty-til-proven-innocent" jaundiced eye toward Porsche purchases.


This all goes out the window, of course!, for that rare, embittered divorcee selling off hubby's prized RSA for $10k. ("take it-- I always hated the thing")
There, fall back on The Godfather: ("Leave the gun, take the cannolis.") Leave the receipts, take the car.


Edit-
You know, Risk -- I've thought some more on this... And this almost starts sounding like arguments of philosophy or religion -- you know?
What type of risk do you acknowledge, which do you discount? Can you quantify the value of history/docs? They obviously don't hold as much relevance as finding that flawed part. But they certainly hold value.
(That is, 15 years of immaculate servicing receipts can be made completely superfluous by a missed downshift three weeks ago. But does a distributor vent line installed last month in preparation of sale, handily camouflage 8-ish years of distributor neglect that's not easy to pick up at PPI? A tuned motor at time of PPI indicate a history of tuning? I don't know.)
The PPI is one snapshot indicator of care & well being. The receipts -- another indicator of care -- and sometimes of well being(?)

MisterRisky

Great feedback. I figured my long rant would get some sparks flying! VERY good point you make about Absence of evidence not being evidence of absence. You point out my Ludic Fallacy very well. And thank you for mentioning Damocles Sword. That is one of my most favoriteist Greek stories.

I agree completely that historical service records yield a great return in predicting future failure. But I found that much of the Porsche market feels the same way you do. They consider the records necessary for a sale meaning that a car without those records greatly drops in value. As a though experiment, what if no one else wanted the car at all since it didn't have records and you could pick it up for 10% of market value for a car with records... would you? I bet you would! So clearly you can see that at some price even the risk averse Godfather of Porsches would buy the car for 10% of market value even if the car didn't have records.

My argument is that the discount that the used Porsche market demands for lack of records is more than the expected value of repairs for that car (if it passes PPI). There's the purchasing opportunity. If you also discount the rebuild (severity of failure) by doing your own work, the decrease in value from not having records is even less.

In the hands of an unscrupulous dealer you can see the opportunity to game this market inefficiency: buy cars with no records and make faux records for them, clean the cars up and sell for a big mark up. I have heard a rumor that there is a Porsche lot in Texas that sells on eBay using this business model.

It's OK to split decisions on what the "right" discount is for no records. We each have a different risk tolerance. I guess that's why I am MisterRisky! (You should have seen that one coming).

Anyone want to buy a mortgage backed security? I have this tranche of condo mortgages in FL.. they yield 8%! What a steal!

elbeee964

"Leave the tranche. Take the cannolis..."

mesa87

Thanks guys for the answers...RN is always a pleasure!

MisterRisky

Fantastic advice!!

Meares

nobody has mentioned replacing the air bag at year 15.....think i read that in Adrian's book.....what say you, JD?

elbeee964

(uh-oh... Now THERE's another "shoe to drop" that I've never heard of, before -- scheduled Airbag replacement.)



[Oh, please, Lord -- let this be a non-issue! -- cuz I don't even want to guess what a Porsche airbag for a 15-year old design lists for today...]

No doubt would require special "air bag assembly powders" made from the crushed wings of a (protected) species of moth found only in remote Tibetan valleys... a design originally vetted by the factory's 'crack' Center Tail Light's Design Team.
-Lonnie

MisterRisky

I replaced mine with pixie dust. I only had to crush and kill 5000 pixies to get enough dust.

Actually Mearns has a good point. I have read that they do have a 15 year shelf life. I guess we will not know until we crash the car.