$4k oil leak estimate...ouch
02-09-2008, 02:04 PM
#31
Quote:
"As it's a '89, the head will need machining"
Nope
"the cylinder tops machined for gasket "
Nope
"and various other things like valve guides."
Nope
"I'm not seeing any other parts that will be required, like timing chain rails, flywheel bolts, clutch parts, injector cleaning, rocker shaft o-rings and related parts."
For an oil leak ?"
And you know it won't need any of this without disassembling the engine?
Yes, for any internal repair work, you look at the big picture, so if the head joints are leaking you would leave them? If the timing chain rails are worn, you would leave them? If there are signs of worn valve guides, you would leave them?
It all depends on what type of end result is required. If re-installing parts that have a limited time left or not updating to a better repair is the aim , thus leaving the engine with a good chance of failure again, I would tend to wash the engine down and not do anything until the problems get really bad.
As 964/993 engines tend to leak from the case through-bolt o-rings after high mileage (100K and up though have seen with lower). Repair means taking the engine down to the case, reassembling it will mean replacing the parts that are worn and NEED replacing.
It very much depends on the engine and how it was maintained and used.
Recently have seen a 350,000 mile 964 that was rebuilt at 340,000, a "97 993 with 28,000 miles misfiring so badly it was running on 5 cylinders with SAI problems and a burnt out clutch, a '89 C4 leaking everywhere with 80,000 miles. It is entering an unknown world the moment you pull the engine out.
"As it's a '89, the head will need machining"
Nope
"the cylinder tops machined for gasket "
Nope
"and various other things like valve guides."
Nope
"I'm not seeing any other parts that will be required, like timing chain rails, flywheel bolts, clutch parts, injector cleaning, rocker shaft o-rings and related parts."
For an oil leak ?"
And you know it won't need any of this without disassembling the engine?
Yes, for any internal repair work, you look at the big picture, so if the head joints are leaking you would leave them? If the timing chain rails are worn, you would leave them? If there are signs of worn valve guides, you would leave them?
It all depends on what type of end result is required. If re-installing parts that have a limited time left or not updating to a better repair is the aim , thus leaving the engine with a good chance of failure again, I would tend to wash the engine down and not do anything until the problems get really bad.
As 964/993 engines tend to leak from the case through-bolt o-rings after high mileage (100K and up though have seen with lower). Repair means taking the engine down to the case, reassembling it will mean replacing the parts that are worn and NEED replacing.
It very much depends on the engine and how it was maintained and used.
Recently have seen a 350,000 mile 964 that was rebuilt at 340,000, a "97 993 with 28,000 miles misfiring so badly it was running on 5 cylinders with SAI problems and a burnt out clutch, a '89 C4 leaking everywhere with 80,000 miles. It is entering an unknown world the moment you pull the engine out.
02-09-2008, 03:11 PM
#32
Nordschleife Master
"Going through tech last wknd, she got black flagged for oil leaks. "
VS
"And you know it won't need any of this without disassembling the engine?"
The only complaint is about leaking oil .
No customer complaint about anything else .
"so if the head joints are leaking you would leave them?"
There is no complaint of this .
"tend to leak from the case through-bolt o-rings "
These are not on the list for repair . If you look at the list of parts , you will see what oil leaks were seen .
"As 964/993 engines tend to leak from the case through-bolt o-rings after high mileage (100K and up though have seen with lower). Repair means taking the engine down to the case, reassembling it will mean replacing the parts that are worn and NEED replacing."
Have you seen this motor ? How do you know it needs "taking the engine down to the case" ?
Small problems = small repairs .
If all it has is oil leaks and it runs just fine , why do anything more than just fix the leaks ?
"Recently have seen a 350,000 mile 964 that was rebuilt at 340,000,"
If this is the case and this motor has 115k on it , it might be 200k to so , until it needs a rebuild .
VS
"And you know it won't need any of this without disassembling the engine?"
The only complaint is about leaking oil .
No customer complaint about anything else .
"so if the head joints are leaking you would leave them?"
There is no complaint of this .
"tend to leak from the case through-bolt o-rings "
These are not on the list for repair . If you look at the list of parts , you will see what oil leaks were seen .
"As 964/993 engines tend to leak from the case through-bolt o-rings after high mileage (100K and up though have seen with lower). Repair means taking the engine down to the case, reassembling it will mean replacing the parts that are worn and NEED replacing."
Have you seen this motor ? How do you know it needs "taking the engine down to the case" ?
Small problems = small repairs .
If all it has is oil leaks and it runs just fine , why do anything more than just fix the leaks ?
"Recently have seen a 350,000 mile 964 that was rebuilt at 340,000,"
If this is the case and this motor has 115k on it , it might be 200k to so , until it needs a rebuild .
02-09-2008, 04:23 PM
#33
I agree with your statement that no other leaks were noted.
I don't agree with your statement about just fixing the leaks.
If it's leaking from one or two places where do you stop?
I can easily see the shop getting into the "ever since you" discussion with the vehicle owner as two, six or eight months down the road another leak appears. Especially as the Porsche is used on the track.
The car is nearly twenty years old and so are all the engine seals unless there is proof of them being changed.
An example, engine is out and clutch is worn out ... what is next step?
As always, debates over this have several points of view, I tend to look at it as someone in the retail motor business (since 1969, repairing Porsche vehicles since 1979) deciding whether it's a job with profit and regular customer or a potential money loosing exercise and ending with an unhappy customer.
I don't agree with your statement about just fixing the leaks.
If it's leaking from one or two places where do you stop?
I can easily see the shop getting into the "ever since you" discussion with the vehicle owner as two, six or eight months down the road another leak appears. Especially as the Porsche is used on the track.
The car is nearly twenty years old and so are all the engine seals unless there is proof of them being changed.
An example, engine is out and clutch is worn out ... what is next step?
As always, debates over this have several points of view, I tend to look at it as someone in the retail motor business (since 1969, repairing Porsche vehicles since 1979) deciding whether it's a job with profit and regular customer or a potential money loosing exercise and ending with an unhappy customer.
02-09-2008, 05:15 PM
#34
Nordschleife Master
Don't fix whats not broken .
"where do you stop"
In this case , I'd stop when it will pass inspection .
Thats what the goal is .
If I take my car to your shop with a leaky valve cover and you drop the motor , pull the heads / cylinders , I'm gunna be a little unhappy with the mission creep .
I tend to look at it from the point of view of a repair tech , optical , mechanical , electrical and electronic
with over 20 years under the belt , who is the son of and was taught by , a WW2 B24 Flight Engineer & prototype machinist for Howard Hughes who's work has been in HH's planes and into space .
"where do you stop"
In this case , I'd stop when it will pass inspection .
Thats what the goal is .
If I take my car to your shop with a leaky valve cover and you drop the motor , pull the heads / cylinders , I'm gunna be a little unhappy with the mission creep .
I tend to look at it from the point of view of a repair tech , optical , mechanical , electrical and electronic
with over 20 years under the belt , who is the son of and was taught by , a WW2 B24 Flight Engineer & prototype machinist for Howard Hughes who's work has been in HH's planes and into space .
02-09-2008, 05:35 PM
#35
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You both have strong perspectives and make good points. Yes, one could go either way here. It's the old 'once I go down into the tunnel how far do I go' problem.
At the end of the day, the pressing issue is oil leaks for me. No fixy, no racey. Last time I A/X'd her, oil began to seep onto the screaming hot heat exchangers and she became a mobile BBQ. Black flag. Hit the showers for me. I barely got 3 runs in.
As to how she's running, she's pretty solid. Of course, she's a 19-year old car with 115k on the ticker, so she could be a little tighter here and there. I intend to resolve that within reason.
So, as to a project plan, I am going to attend to the leaks first and see if she can pass. Once I have her on the track I can get a better sense about how she is performing in other departments. That insight will guide next repairs and mods, if I had to guess.
ketel
02-09-2008, 05:47 PM
#36
Indycam,
I do understand your viewpoint, I just don't see it in the world of retail vehicle repairs.
It might pass inspection..... today, but soon after, if it doesn't, because of another leak which should have been addressed, who pays and who takes the blame?
If you bring your car with a leaky valve cover, the first thing to establish is whether it actually has leaky valve cover.
If it has, the next thing is; "when was the valve adjustment done and spark plugs changed? " as replacing valve cover gasket involves removing parts, are you just going to replace the gasket, only to have to do the valve adjustment and plugs soon after?
Any repair involves consultation with the vehicle owner, but the "real world of potential repair costs" has to be made clear. Customers tend to want a warranty with the work, repair shops (well at least, I do) want both long-term customers and a profit at the end of the day.
Adding on later:
It is a worse situation for track cars, if there is a mechanical problem and it cannot be used at the track, a lot of potential track time can be lost.
I do understand your viewpoint, I just don't see it in the world of retail vehicle repairs.
It might pass inspection..... today, but soon after, if it doesn't, because of another leak which should have been addressed, who pays and who takes the blame?
If you bring your car with a leaky valve cover, the first thing to establish is whether it actually has leaky valve cover.
If it has, the next thing is; "when was the valve adjustment done and spark plugs changed? " as replacing valve cover gasket involves removing parts, are you just going to replace the gasket, only to have to do the valve adjustment and plugs soon after?
Any repair involves consultation with the vehicle owner, but the "real world of potential repair costs" has to be made clear. Customers tend to want a warranty with the work, repair shops (well at least, I do) want both long-term customers and a profit at the end of the day.
Adding on later:
It is a worse situation for track cars, if there is a mechanical problem and it cannot be used at the track, a lot of potential track time can be lost.
Last edited by GMS; 02-09-2008 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Extra thoughts
02-10-2008, 11:32 PM
#37
Race Director
Indycam,
I do understand your viewpoint, I just don't see it in the world of retail vehicle repairs.
It might pass inspection..... today, but soon after, if it doesn't, because of another leak which should have been addressed, who pays and who takes the blame?
If you bring your car with a leaky valve cover, the first thing to establish is whether it actually has leaky valve cover.
If it has, the next thing is; "when was the valve adjustment done and spark plugs changed? " as replacing valve cover gasket involves removing parts, are you just going to replace the gasket, only to have to do the valve adjustment and plugs soon after?
Any repair involves consultation with the vehicle owner, but the "real world of potential repair costs" has to be made clear. Customers tend to want a warranty with the work, repair shops (well at least, I do) want both long-term customers and a profit at the end of the day.
Adding on later:
It is a worse situation for track cars, if there is a mechanical problem and it cannot be used at the track, a lot of potential track time can be lost.
I do understand your viewpoint, I just don't see it in the world of retail vehicle repairs.
It might pass inspection..... today, but soon after, if it doesn't, because of another leak which should have been addressed, who pays and who takes the blame?
If you bring your car with a leaky valve cover, the first thing to establish is whether it actually has leaky valve cover.
If it has, the next thing is; "when was the valve adjustment done and spark plugs changed? " as replacing valve cover gasket involves removing parts, are you just going to replace the gasket, only to have to do the valve adjustment and plugs soon after?
Any repair involves consultation with the vehicle owner, but the "real world of potential repair costs" has to be made clear. Customers tend to want a warranty with the work, repair shops (well at least, I do) want both long-term customers and a profit at the end of the day.
Adding on later:
It is a worse situation for track cars, if there is a mechanical problem and it cannot be used at the track, a lot of potential track time can be lost.
There are many pro's and con's to the question at hand. Unless the owner wants to spend a bunch of cash now, and get the car to stock not leaking state, then run with it for a season. He may get the bug bad, and want to do some mods at the end of the season. Then would be a great time to rebuild and upgrade.
my 2 pence
