964 C4 on Ice Track @ Steamboat, CO
02-04-2008, 03:26 PM
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964 C4 on Ice Track @ Steamboat, CO
Well it was definitely a learning experience. Having run ( and taught) at this event for now 10+ years, finally driving a machine with the motor hanging way out over the back axle vs. way out in front of the front axle (as in Audi Quattro's) required much more finesse.
Our collection of people known as Gruppe-Q rent the track at the Bridgestone Winter School up in Steamboat each year. I decided this was the year to really take the risk and fling the 964 C4 around on ice. We rented track-3 which is 12-turns, multiple elevation changes, 5ft high snow banks and ice so slick you couldn't safely walk without cleats/crampons. This is a small event limited to roughly 20cars and it's a pretty set group of people. Almost exclusively Audi brand since that's our common background. Anyway here's my take on snow & ice driving the 964 C4. Note: tires were friction (eg: non-studded) Nokian RSi's of stock size mounted on D90 wheels. Most people run those or the Blizzack's.
The use of left-foot-braking is absolutely paramount to controlling the angle of drift and maintaining general directional control on such low-Cf surfaces at relatively high speeds.
Huh?!?! - OK, compared to driving a Gen-1 Quattro where you could manually lock the center & rear diffs, while also disabling the ABS - the 964 C4 system kind of does it's own thing. What I found on day-1 was that just letting the computer make all the decisions resulted in low corner entry and exit speeds as well as an alarming tendency to spin 360's and 720's down the main straight after the kink. As the computer would shift torque fore and aft as the car would drift through turns the result was fairly unstable at speeds over 60mph. (Remember this is glare, polished ice...)
Now on the second day I added health doses of LFB back into the mix and the car was transformed! Now you simply select your corner exit throttle setting (say 75%) and then counter-steer & LFB to maintain the angle of attack relative to direction of travel, while simultaneously controlling the rear-end from attempting to pass the front-end. It was magical! By the end of the second day I was 90% as confident as I am in a Gen-1 Quattro in terms of capability.
Now a couple of comments. I found that once past about 45-50deg of drift at speeds over 60mph - that the amount of intertia in the back-end of the car was difficult to over-come and control. ABS was annoying but not crippling. I do however wish there was a way to disable it without killing the diff controls. The brakes for the 964 C4 on ice w/proper tires were stunning right up until there was too much energy going in too many different directions. Meaning if you're trying to grab lots of brake, while drifting sideways in a turn - well you're kind of screwed.
Uh yes - I did manage to do some damage to the car as a result of high-speed impacts with the snow-banks during this learning experience... Yes including the just freshly repainted & replaced rear sections... But heck that's racing!
Here's a few photos, but I can't seem to link them to pop-up directly...
Mr P driving my car and me in pass-seat thinking "we're gonna die..."
Through the bottom of the carousel that was deadly slippery
Holding the drift coming up the main straight via LFB.
More of the main straight drift, notice the modified line of the bumperettes
What happens when things go wrong...
I learned a TON about hanging the 964 out there and what's involved in managing that. I thank Mr P and Mr J for offering insight as to 911-P-car ice racing line and energy management. Yes - pulling off a perfect Scandi-flick in the 911 is just as rewarding as in a front-engined car. And yes, the howl of the flat-six at the ice track was worth driving Houston to Steamboat and back.
PS: As a result of the ignition coil failure and subsequent replacement (coils, caps, rotors and ignition modules) I've picked up GOBS of power and 2.5mpg in highway cruise. I averaged 25.75mpg on the ride home @ about 80-85mph for 1200miles.
Rob D.
Houston, TX
'90 964 C4 - now w/171k miles! Now needing some new plastic bits...
Our collection of people known as Gruppe-Q rent the track at the Bridgestone Winter School up in Steamboat each year. I decided this was the year to really take the risk and fling the 964 C4 around on ice. We rented track-3 which is 12-turns, multiple elevation changes, 5ft high snow banks and ice so slick you couldn't safely walk without cleats/crampons. This is a small event limited to roughly 20cars and it's a pretty set group of people. Almost exclusively Audi brand since that's our common background. Anyway here's my take on snow & ice driving the 964 C4. Note: tires were friction (eg: non-studded) Nokian RSi's of stock size mounted on D90 wheels. Most people run those or the Blizzack's.
The use of left-foot-braking is absolutely paramount to controlling the angle of drift and maintaining general directional control on such low-Cf surfaces at relatively high speeds.
Huh?!?! - OK, compared to driving a Gen-1 Quattro where you could manually lock the center & rear diffs, while also disabling the ABS - the 964 C4 system kind of does it's own thing. What I found on day-1 was that just letting the computer make all the decisions resulted in low corner entry and exit speeds as well as an alarming tendency to spin 360's and 720's down the main straight after the kink. As the computer would shift torque fore and aft as the car would drift through turns the result was fairly unstable at speeds over 60mph. (Remember this is glare, polished ice...)
Now on the second day I added health doses of LFB back into the mix and the car was transformed! Now you simply select your corner exit throttle setting (say 75%) and then counter-steer & LFB to maintain the angle of attack relative to direction of travel, while simultaneously controlling the rear-end from attempting to pass the front-end. It was magical! By the end of the second day I was 90% as confident as I am in a Gen-1 Quattro in terms of capability.
Now a couple of comments. I found that once past about 45-50deg of drift at speeds over 60mph - that the amount of intertia in the back-end of the car was difficult to over-come and control. ABS was annoying but not crippling. I do however wish there was a way to disable it without killing the diff controls. The brakes for the 964 C4 on ice w/proper tires were stunning right up until there was too much energy going in too many different directions. Meaning if you're trying to grab lots of brake, while drifting sideways in a turn - well you're kind of screwed.
Uh yes - I did manage to do some damage to the car as a result of high-speed impacts with the snow-banks during this learning experience... Yes including the just freshly repainted & replaced rear sections... But heck that's racing!
Here's a few photos, but I can't seem to link them to pop-up directly...
Mr P driving my car and me in pass-seat thinking "we're gonna die..."
Through the bottom of the carousel that was deadly slippery
Holding the drift coming up the main straight via LFB.
More of the main straight drift, notice the modified line of the bumperettes
What happens when things go wrong...
I learned a TON about hanging the 964 out there and what's involved in managing that. I thank Mr P and Mr J for offering insight as to 911-P-car ice racing line and energy management. Yes - pulling off a perfect Scandi-flick in the 911 is just as rewarding as in a front-engined car. And yes, the howl of the flat-six at the ice track was worth driving Houston to Steamboat and back.
PS: As a result of the ignition coil failure and subsequent replacement (coils, caps, rotors and ignition modules) I've picked up GOBS of power and 2.5mpg in highway cruise. I averaged 25.75mpg on the ride home @ about 80-85mph for 1200miles.
Rob D.
Houston, TX
'90 964 C4 - now w/171k miles! Now needing some new plastic bits...
02-04-2008, 03:43 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
I ran the Audi Quattro event there years ago when I was a ski bum in Steamboat, and had an absolute blast. Stupid fun, but you don't realize how much translates over. Great way to get really comfortable with your car. Great pics!
02-04-2008, 04:01 PM
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It was completely odd being there driving like a newbie vs. going absolutely gonzo as I had for the previous decade. Those snow banks looked EXPENSIVE when you're drifting into them w/ a 911 vs. a beat up 4k, 5k, or UrQ....
My ex beast-car the "LT-1Q" now owned by Mr G. has been up there every year. LT-1 engined Audi 5kQ. It was a blast to build and nice to see it's still running and scarring the hell out of people.
My ex beast-car the "LT-1Q" now owned by Mr G. has been up there every year. LT-1 engined Audi 5kQ. It was a blast to build and nice to see it's still running and scarring the hell out of people.
02-04-2008, 04:09 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
I buried my 4kg almost to the windhield once in one of the snowbanks back when the track was at the front of the ski area parking lot. Is morgan still instructing for them? I used to work with him up at the ski area.
02-04-2008, 07:54 PM
#6
Nordschleife Master
Look! -- It's a bird! It's a plane! -- No! -- It's...
Rob,
You may now pick up your newly anointed comic strip hero's mantle: Captain Obvious!
Cheers.
Looked like great fun & education. And Steamboat's good any time of the year.
(Only wish they hadn't discontinued their vintage car race, dang it!)
-Lonnie
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02-05-2008, 12:30 PM
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Captain Obvious?!?!? - Well honestly I didn't know what to expect. In Gen-1 Quattro's w/locked diffs recovery from drift angles beyond 90deg to direction of travel are very possible. BTDT. So for me the real trick was the rate of which the drift angle increases.
The reason that 45-50deg was about my limit was that I simply ran out of track & traction at the exit given the shape of the turns and width of the surface. In other words if I forced the issue for high slip angles there was too much inertia to over-come with my meager skills...
Do I understand by your comment that my skills aren't the limiting factor and it's simply a matter of physics and the nature of the 911 that it's not possible?
I would think if folks have access to a frozen-lake scenario, that it's a safe way to mess around with flicks and other drift related maneuvers without the snow-bank impact potential & broken plastic reality.
I know it's probably hard for a lot of people to imagine doing something like this with their baby - but I personally find the risk justified so that when things in the real world go wrong that there's a higher probability that I can safely recover and avoid really bad things from happening. Of course I find racing cars through the woods at night quite exhilarating so perhaps my perspective is significantly warped...
The reason that 45-50deg was about my limit was that I simply ran out of track & traction at the exit given the shape of the turns and width of the surface. In other words if I forced the issue for high slip angles there was too much inertia to over-come with my meager skills...
Do I understand by your comment that my skills aren't the limiting factor and it's simply a matter of physics and the nature of the 911 that it's not possible?I would think if folks have access to a frozen-lake scenario, that it's a safe way to mess around with flicks and other drift related maneuvers without the snow-bank impact potential & broken plastic reality.
I know it's probably hard for a lot of people to imagine doing something like this with their baby - but I personally find the risk justified so that when things in the real world go wrong that there's a higher probability that I can safely recover and avoid really bad things from happening. Of course I find racing cars through the woods at night quite exhilarating so perhaps my perspective is significantly warped...
02-05-2008, 01:15 PM
#10
Nordschleife Master
It was never about your skills. Only of the ability to catch a rear-engined car that's swinging back in line from such a huge offset angle. When that back hooks up from way out there -- whooa, Nellie! -- it's hard for the front wheels to keep up to that new momentum shift as the back end overshoots.
Perfect video of this is The BIG Crash in Le Mans. (No -- not the Ferrari-as-birdman crash... The Other one. The rail-to-rail [pseudo] 917k crack up.) Watch the poor little 911-catalyst of Mike Delaney's (Our Hero Steve's) wreck: It's all on whetted asphalt as I remember (but not sure) and that 911 driver gets caught waaay out, corrects, but that rear collects itself with enough momentum that it just -- Goes! -- into an uncontrollable counterspin to the original drift.
Classic 911 ****-bite.
Perfect video of this is The BIG Crash in Le Mans. (No -- not the Ferrari-as-birdman crash... The Other one. The rail-to-rail [pseudo] 917k crack up.) Watch the poor little 911-catalyst of Mike Delaney's (Our Hero Steve's) wreck: It's all on whetted asphalt as I remember (but not sure) and that 911 driver gets caught waaay out, corrects, but that rear collects itself with enough momentum that it just -- Goes! -- into an uncontrollable counterspin to the original drift.
Classic 911 ****-bite.
02-05-2008, 07:55 PM
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LoL - Whoa Nellie is right!
I had to check my drawers the first few times things went past where I wanted them, because when it goes.. it goes BIG! Glad to know it's not just my skill-level that's the limiting factor too! It is completely bizzaar to me even now - to have the spin-sensation coming from somewhere behind the small of your back.
In the Quattro's you could sort of feel like you were on a merry-go-round as a kid with your butt hanging out there but the main focus of energy being the hub of the m-g-r (eg: front of car). Best way I can describe the 911 swinging is that it's like being on the last car of a roller coaster going through S-curves where you're simply getting whipped, and the illusion of control after you've passed the point of no return...
TBENNETT017:
If you can find a place to play with this on ice - it's awesome - if only just to feel it. Second would be a very large, wet empty parking lot with no police/security to hassle you. Speeds would be higher but all else would be same.
Flat-6 screeching, looking in direction of travel through driver's side window, 50% counter steer dialed in, right foot on floor, left foot working brakes to keep it in control... Ahhhh it's magical. Also VERY cool when passenger finally starts breathing again and says ".... that was AWESOME!!!..."
Not quite so magical is the swear-word-laden mantra that eminates from ones lips as you go from a drift into a fully developed 360, 720 or more; feeling completely helpless at stopping that snow bank / other car from helping you make an abrupt end to your spinny-spin-spins...
I suppose now I'll have to put up a link to the video of me doing just that... It'll take a few days.
(the spin part - not the abrupt stop)
I had to check my drawers the first few times things went past where I wanted them, because when it goes.. it goes BIG! Glad to know it's not just my skill-level that's the limiting factor too! It is completely bizzaar to me even now - to have the spin-sensation coming from somewhere behind the small of your back.
In the Quattro's you could sort of feel like you were on a merry-go-round as a kid with your butt hanging out there but the main focus of energy being the hub of the m-g-r (eg: front of car). Best way I can describe the 911 swinging is that it's like being on the last car of a roller coaster going through S-curves where you're simply getting whipped, and the illusion of control after you've passed the point of no return...
TBENNETT017:
If you can find a place to play with this on ice - it's awesome - if only just to feel it. Second would be a very large, wet empty parking lot with no police/security to hassle you. Speeds would be higher but all else would be same.
Flat-6 screeching, looking in direction of travel through driver's side window, 50% counter steer dialed in, right foot on floor, left foot working brakes to keep it in control... Ahhhh it's magical. Also VERY cool when passenger finally starts breathing again and says ".... that was AWESOME!!!..."
Not quite so magical is the swear-word-laden mantra that eminates from ones lips as you go from a drift into a fully developed 360, 720 or more; feeling completely helpless at stopping that snow bank / other car from helping you make an abrupt end to your spinny-spin-spins...
I suppose now I'll have to put up a link to the video of me doing just that... It'll take a few days.
(the spin part - not the abrupt stop)
02-05-2008, 10:04 PM
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That sounds like fun. I'd be interested in seeing what a 944 could pull off. The ride wouldn't have as much character as the 964, but it would certainly be entertaining. I kinda want to do that now.
