Porsche_Red

ignition coil/amplifier one of the same - you should try this because it mirrors exactly my problem at the time.

Indycam

The amp would be the transistor / ignition switch . Its on the plate right in front of the coils .
The test for spark kinda rules out the amp .
Are you in NJ or CA ?

Euromagination

NJ at the mo'.

Also: A single amp works for both coils? So testing for spark from one of the two coils confirms a good amp? Is that the logic? (trying to learn here too)

Porsche_Red

Just to muddy the waters.....I had spark from both distributors - it still was the amp (you have two). The main distributor is the one to the right as you look at the engine and this is the one you should concentrate on given the same faults that I was getting. Have you done a coil change just to rule that out? If you swap them over and get any change that will be a clue - coils can run but badly sometimes especially under load (have you cleaned the terminals to see if there is any arcing (start the engine in the dark and any arcing should be visible) - just don't get too close to the fan!

warmfuzzies

If you still think it's a fuelling problem, and it dies on you. Then open the fuel filler cap, and see if the tank vents heavily, open the luggage lid and see if the fuel tank has been sucked in. If so It could be your carbon canister behind the LHS wheel in the wing, IIRC this has happened to a couple of folks before...

Kevin

Indycam

The fact that you have spark , kinda rules out a spark problem . Not 100% .
If you do the starter fluid test and the motor runs , we can then say 100% that it is not a spark problem .

Indycam

"Then open the fuel filler cap"
A good idea / test .

Euromagination

I just tried the starting fluid a few times about an hour ago with no results. It actually made zero difference, so I guess the starting fluid test combined with the DME jumper test and the strong fuel odor when i try to start the car a few times pretty much rules out the fuel system. Is that safe to say or are there more components of the fuel system I should test??

I then went ahead and pulled the coils real fast, then came inside to test their resistance, which is perfectly in spec for both coils I and II. I figured they were good since I had spark out of one of them, but just wanted to test both so I can completely rule them out.

I was actually praying it was an ignition coil since they're so cheap and easy to swap out. Of course no such luck...

...and the opening of the fuel cap is one of the very first things i did a few days ago. everything was fine with that little test. definitely a good idea though.

So here's where I am with this:
--I have spark from the coils, and the resistance is well within spec on both...
--It's not a clogged fuel filter (I checked; AND anyway it's brand new)
--Starting fluid produces no results at all; not even an improvement.
--I've ruled out the fuel pump. (used jumper to test' and i smell fuel after a few start attempts...)
--I've ruled out the carbon canister.
--I've ruled out the idle speed cntl valve (b/c the stalling happens even when I'm giving it decent throttle)
--I don't think I can have such a widespread and sudden injector problem that would cause this much ruckus, so I've ruled out injectors.
--I doesn't seem to be the flywheel reference sensor because the car seems to be sort of choking on itself. I would think that if it were the flywheel reference sensor, it just wouldn't start or run at all, period.
--The battery is in great shape. (it's a pretty new Optima)


I'm back to thinking it's something in the ignition system. No idea what. I'm also not sure how to go upon testing the amps the a couple of you were mentioning...

What do I try next?

Thnx,
Harry

Indycam

It does not rule out the fuel system .
My air cooled vanagon did something like your car , turned out to be the cylinder head temp sender .
The computer was seeing that the motor was cold and ran it way rich . So rich that it was flooding .
Very hard to restart .

"I'm back to thinking it's something in the ignition system. No idea what. I'm also not sure how to go upon testing the amps the a couple of you were mentioning..."
The spark test . If you get a nice big blue spark .

Try do the jumper for the relay again but do not power up the fuel pump . Crank it over and see if it fires up .

Euromagination

Just to kick ideas around...

RE: the cylinder head temp sensor... since i had this problem one day when it first stalled, and it went away the next day while i drove it for 10 minutes, then after that 10 minutes of perfect driving it started gurgling and stalling little-by-little until it stalled for good a few minutes later and never came back since... would that rule out the cyl head sensor since it's intermittent??

does the intermittence of a problem rule out as much as I think it would or are many things with this car sometimes slow-to-die? i know with my old audis and vw's, when something died, it died for good.... there was no going dead, then coming back to life, then going dead again...

though the past few days it hasn't been intermittent. it's been a solid 'no start'.

i could possibly be off a bit, but i think it's very important and noteworthy to always keep in the back of my mind the fact that this problem started out intermittently, and now it's constant. i think that's makes a big difference in the order of approach of things, but then again if i knew that much i wouldn't be asking you guys!!

maybe i should choose a different ground to test for spark so i can see the color better. which ground in the engine compartment is best to test spark with due to placement/access?

also, how do i do the jumper for the fuel pump without actually powering the fuel pump up? isn't that the purpose of the test is to turn it on to see if it works or not? what am i missing here??

thnx for your help everyone. it's much appreciated.

-Harry

Indycam

"would that rule out the cyl head sensor since it's intermittent??"
My head temp sensor was intermittent . When I moved the wire around I could kill the motor . The wire was going to ground cause the insulation was not so good .

The dme relay does more than just the fuel pump iirc .

"maybe i should choose a different ground"
If you have jumper cables , grab the spark plug threads with one end and grab a good ground or two with the other . Red and black to spark plug threads , red and black to grounds ?

dfinnegan

Harry,

Do you have a hammer?

I'd be willing to bring mine by for some diagnostics.

Dave

Edit: I also have a CHT sensor

Porsche_Red

Sorry to state the obvious but have you taken out a spark plug to see what colour they are? If they are bone dry after turning the negine over then you know you've got a fuel problem - if they're wet you know you have a spark problem. The DME relay in addition to powering the fuel pump also is connected to the lambda sensor (although with this severe problem I doubt that is the cause). Here will tell you all you want to know about the relay www.clarks-garage.com/pdf-manual/fuel-05.pdf . Whenever I'm stuck like this I go back to basics and checking the condition of your plugs will tell you the health state of the engine.

Euromagination

Unfortunately I don't have a Hammer. That's an outstanding offer, but are you sure that's not too far for you being that you're in NY? I'm in central Jersey. If you can't (or don't particularly want to) bring it all the way down here, I understand completely. However, if we could somehow meet up, that would be sweet and helpful I'm sure.

I'm taking a break from this problem this weekend but plan to start on it again tomorrow... First thing I'm going to do is check for the color of the spark.

This problem bugs. I bet it's one of those little problems that will have me saying, "Are you kidding me? That was the problem that caused all this drama??"

Hehe.

Indycam

"First thing I'm going to do is check for the color of the spark."
Sparks , two spark systems , two sparks .
Might as well check for two .